There was a huge crowd at Buzzbrews Kitchen on Lemmon Avenue tonight for a debate between Blake Wilkinson and Rick Vanderslice of Queer Liberaction, and Jay Narey and Mike Lo Vuolo, who are board members for Stonewall Democrats but weren’t representing the organization in an official capacity. Because I served as one of the moderators and was to some extent a participant, I’d be interested to hear audience members’ thoughts about how it went. As always, if you choose to comment, please keep it civil.
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I will start by saying that personally I believe that both direct and indirect action are needed. The direction action can highlight issues and apply pressure to speed up the indirect action. I’m also a long time resident of Fort Worth. So, that’s my frame of mind going into this.
One thing that does strike me as really strange: the name Stonewall Democrats. They use Stonewall in their name, as in the Stonewall Riots. It’s a bit strange that a group named after a very direct action like the Stonewall Riots would be debating against a direct action organization.
Here are quotes by Frederick Douglass that I think are relevant to this debate:
“If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning.”
“Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.”
To borrow from the first quote, in Dallas, the plow has been in the barn for several years and only in the last year have our young LGBT people come of age and reminded us to take it out from time to time. Here in Fort Worth, the plow has never really been out of the barn much until a couple of months ago.
There was a mention of the ACT-UP demonstrations in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s in Dallas. I participated in many of these events, but not in a front line, get arrested position.
What an extremely selective (or inventive) memory some of these people have!
ACT-UP (and also Queer Nation) got the same grief that QL gets today. The same arguments that direct action was no longer needed and that ACT-UP was making us all look bad. That we should just shut up and let the politicians cut back room deals for our rights. We saw ACT-UP leaders called all kinds of names and trashed by our own community.
Oddly, some of the most dedicated supporters of ACT-UP were the Transgendered (as were they at Stonewall in 1969). And today, Transgendered are still the first ones thrown under the bus by our politicians. Just look at the Fort Worth ordinance which left Transgendered out.
On a positive note, the event ended with Stonewall Democrats (well kinda, sorta Stonewall Democrats) agreeing that they will work with Queer LiberAction on certain common protests. I believe those were regarding the new Omni convention hotel not giving domestic partner benefits to all employees and also against cutting of city benefits to persons living with HIV, (although the latter was just casually mentioned once I think).
John
I assume when you say “be civil” you are talking in reference to Jay and Mike. When the night gets started by asking Blake why he is such a jerk, the agenda is pretty much set.
Sadly, last night made me realize how disconnected to the Dallas gay community I am. I think I may be too old, too poor and maybe just too wierd for it.
If Rodney King had been there last night, he might have had his famous question finally answered.
I have never been more proud to be a social activist with Queer Liberaction. I found Mr. Neary to be condesending and felt that it was difficult for him to be civil to Blake. I did not observe Blake or Rick being confrontational or condesending .
I wish everyone would understand that there is room for everyone at the table. While my heart and mind is with QL and direct action, I absolutely see the value in some of the less “in your face” tactics. Let’s end this quarrel and keep our eyes on the prize……equal rights for all.
Jack, I am. Nobody is too old, poor or wierd to have a voice. Jack you matter. Make your voice heard!
I wasted 2 hours of my life last night. It was a total bitchfest. They primarily spent 2 hours talking about how much the other side sucks. Now that I know what is ineffective, could we please get pass this and try to work on what IS effective? We may need another debate for that question b/c it was never answered last night, along with most of the questions asked by the panel and audience.
I was standing around a few of the Stonewall Democrats (including Jay Narey and Erin Moore plus a few others) after the debate was over. They were making fun of how they thought Blake was “whining” (words of some in that group) that Stonewall didn’t want to work with them. You could hear and see the condescension in their voice and actions. Stonewall has absolutely NO respect for QL and its obvious in this incident that I witnessed and the Op-Ed by Mr. Narey.
I didn’t get to similarly hang with the QL crowd before everyone dispersed, so I don’t know how they were reacting towards Stonewall. However it appeared to me that among the leadership of Stonewall Democrats, there is a deep-seated distaste for Blake and QL. There’s a huge lack of respect or appreciation for what they do.
Stonewall seems to forget that before they came, there were activists just like QL [Act-Up] and there were the establishment-entrenched groups as well. Blake never once made it sound like he wasn’t willing to work with Stonewall but it seems Stonewall doesn’t want or can’t work with Blake.
Perhaps the best lesson both of them could learn is this: USE EACH OTHER’S STRENGTHS!
Blake has the cudgel that can create populist anger and political pressure on politicians via the media. Let him be a media whore (I don’t think he is) if it helps Stonewall put pressure on politicians.. Stonewall has the connections with those politicians to try to get things passed in our favor.
If the leaders of Stonewall were smart, they’d be subtly using the thread of Blake’s power to create populist anger and political pressure against those politicians that are reluctant to work with us. It worked in Ft. Worth and with the TABC. If ANYONE thinks we’d have seen the public mea culpas that the TABC and FWPD gave recently WITHOUT the public protests from QL that made the news, both locally and nationally, you’re naieve.
Do so “under the table” if you must. Publicly deride Queer Liberaction if you must while you’re secretly working with them to plan protests that would most help get attention for our agenda.
But never forget that BOTH of you are working for the same end-result – better civil rights for the GLBT community.
Learn to work together, and stop squabbling like children.
I attended the meeting with an open mind, but the behavior of the SD members at the table next to me was appalling. I could barely hear the debate because all we could hear were snide comments from the gallery. What a bunch of elitists!
Maybe there is hope for QL – if they find an intelligent and sincere leader. I think people have much more of a problem with Blake than QL’s intentions. QL has suffered from Blake’s childish antics.
I nominate Joe Remsik, everyone loves him.
I think think it is quite silly that these individuals/organizations have resorted to such mud slinging. There was no actual debate, just a glorified rendition of “I know You Are But What Am I.” This is the “silly season” of politics that we have hear President Obama so often refer to.
To Jay I would say that he SERIOUSLY needs to be less reactive in terms of his facial expressions, if he wants anything he says to be taken seriously. Otherwise, someone give him his binky and a bottle.
To Blake I would say, though I admire your determination and ability to rally the troops, your ONE talking point, Jay’s Op-Ed piece, provided no real grounds for argument, but just contributed to the mud slinging. And trying to slam him for it over and OVER again, was kinda pointless.
It is so evident that both styles are necessary for change, and though both sides made a half-ass attempt at acknowledging that, they completely negated their efforts by promptly stabbing the others in the back…
What a shame, Laura and David. As a leader in QL, I approached Jay thanking him and expressed interest in working with him, and his reponse was very hesitant and non-commital. Interesting, when we all need to work together.
I am so proud of QL, and am equally proud to call Blake and Rick great friends.
David, you are wrong. I do have respect for what QL does. What I don’t have respect for is sweeping generalizations. And what I think you overheard was me contesting the points that we have never worked with QL or attended any of their events. Blake was invited to and attended a meeting of the Stonewall Democrats as a speaker. Stonewall members have and will continue to attend demonstrations and events hosted by QL as well as other organizations.
Brian, thanks for your nomination. While I am flattered, I will leave it to my good friend, Blake. What is your real name Brian? I would love to have a cup of coffee and a good face to face conversation. Are you open to that?
I am wondering what the issue is with Blake. Let’s put it on the table. I think that he evokes anger in the community. Anger is a necessity for change. I am angry. Are you? I fing Blake to be sincere and real……not a mud slinger or a media whore. Please, please share.
Erin
Here is the irony of the evening.
David expresses his viewpoint. What he heard, what he sensed and the vibe he got.
Erin Moore says he is WRONG. Why is he WRONG? Because his viewpoint is different than yours? I heard the very same thing after the event ended. As I was making my way to my car, where the Stonewall Democrats ( or those not representative of, but not exclusive of, but were part of, yet were not part of, but were not there in a representative part or whatever the F that was about) and the Blake bashing was in full force.
So Erin did you communicate with Blake and QL in the same manner that you have communicated with me in regards to my request for our radio show? Which is to say NOT.
While you certainly have every right to refuse to be on my show, I would think I at least deserve a return email. As President of SD’s why didn’t you appear on the panel?
Even with non gay issues, I am happy and proud to let the upcoming generation make their own path of activism. It is their choice. I can say that the elder have done their best but we were not perfect and I hope they learn from our mistakes. I think our biggest mistake has been our lack of in your face activism.
The right wingers are about to destroy Healthcare Reform with all their yelling and screaming. And they are telling lies. Just imagine what could be done with the truth.
I have read and re read Mr. Narey’s op ed, and I found it to be snarky and vindictive as hell. The same with his closing comments. His main complaint is that Blake is a media whore.
I hope he is. I hope he becomes one of the best because I have yet to see attached to his name any sort of talent agency representation, or him trying to sell a rubber chicken dinner,
or doing anything but promoting the gay rights agenda.
Frankly the person that made the most sense last night was the Publisher of the Dallas Voice, Robert Moore (I’m not just sucking up either because I’m on your blog). Like me, Robert has been around and witnessed this same essential interchange for decades.
There were lots of people who didn’t like the approach Bill Nelson took some 20 years ago but no one can argue his affect on our community.
Bill had been a teacher at my high school and a short time after he quit I saw him on the evening news; first as the Vice President of the Dallas Gay Alliance and later as the President and still later as a City Council Candidate. I was young and still in the closet at the time and seeing a familiar face on the TV as an out proud gay man gave me immeasurable courage. Bill wasn’t afraid of the camera and did what he could to bring attention to our community and its plight.
Sometimes Bill shouted and sometimes people didn’t like that but to me he was a guardian angel who threw a lifeline right into my parent’s living room. His presence made lots of people uncomfortable, but it made me proud!
Additionally, no one can argue the impact John Thomas made on our community. John had the softer edge and was a much better negotiator than Bill was. John never met a stranger and his natural ease with people disarmed them and he got results of his own.
I’m willing to bet that the two of them locked horns on more than one occasion but together they helped shape the world that I live in and the place I call home. I for one am grateful that they were both here in this place and I am also proud to be able to say that I knew them.
I’m old enough to really know just how far we have come. I’m young enough to realize that isn’t enough and there is a long way to go. I’m angry that the very people we have helped sweep into control of our government are now throwing us to the back of the bus.
I have attended more protests since November than I have in the last 20 years. The Hate on 8 debate helped spark a new activism in our community that has been lacking since the advent of Protease Inhibitors. I was there when Bill Nelson and John Thomas filled a lot with crosses to mark the first 1000 dead of AIDS in Dallas County. It was the most moving thing I ever witnessed. It was also designed to make it to the evening news. Which it did.
Please stop worrying about who gets the credit and bury the ax because together you can make that kind of magic again. We are here, we are paying attention and we are galvanized. How are you going to use us?
Okay, enough of the “poor, poor Blake” talk. He called this courtyard fight, thinly veiled as a debate, and now his friends want to get mad because the “other side” got a few good jabs in. To hear Mr. Vanderslice essentially say that QL will continue doing what they do with, or without, anyone’s permission or approval made this whole night a waste of time.
Listen, the word “activism” itself can become an elitist mindset by people who think that their actions in the streets or in the boardroom, because of time or influence, are any better than those who simply go to work each day to make time and money available to help out when they can.
Sadly, nothing was accomplished last night with the exception of more mudslinging within the community. We should look deep inside ourselves and ask, “why do I want to tear down a member of my gay family who wants to start an organization that particular individual deems necessary?”. We should be building each other up, supporting each others causes and the struggle for equality in a country that proclaims “Land of The Free”. Last night almost brought me to tears to hear boasting about “what I did” and “what my group did” and how “your group is not needed”. You sounded like the Southern Baptist convention arguing about who’s mother has the best bunt cake at the bake sell! I ended up leaving Buzz Brews frustrated during the audience questions along with more mudslinging from the audience.
Last night I was embarrassed to be homosexual (something that rarely happens). I have never heard such childish bickering among adults who want to be viewed as leaders and want to toss their titles or accomplishments out at the beginning of every sentence. It was worse than listening to the Episcopal diocese duke it out! While I may not agree 100% with the techniques used by either group last night, I am still a part of the Dallas gay community and I feel the need to support any organization that wants to work with our enemies and allies (that includes other gay organizations). How can we take on a country that does not want us when we act like we don’t want our own people.
The Freedom of Speech Night was more like an episode of Jerry Springer without the baby daddy appearing and the chairs flying. What was accomplished? Nothing! What progress was made? None! Am I disappointed? Yes! We should not be defending ourselves against our own.
I am not hearing any “poor Blake” comments. The theme throughout these posts is that we need to move forward with our common goals. I agree with Rick, QL will not seek people’s approval to continue what we do best. Our “in your face” approach is what we do. We do it well. Is it the be all and end all? No. It is one piece of this very complicated puzzle.
What I would like to hear…instead of people banter on about what a value/waste of time last night was…to take a stand on our common issue and get involved. If you prefer to write letters and have meetings, that is FINE. If you prefer direct action, FINE. Let us just move past this–free from the shackels that we are placing on ourselves. We need all of our energy to fopcus on the COMMON GOAL.
How are YOU going to get involved??
Also, for the record, not all of QL’s members are Dallas folks. I am a Ft. Worth resident.
I’m just a queer, a member of Andi, Inc. and Andi’s Family Conglomerates Co. Ltd.
Jack E: Re-reading Erin’s response to David, I think she said, “David, you are wrong” in response to: “Stonewall has absolutely NO respect for QL.” He made a sweeping statement, she rebutted, and I think you misconstrued. I believe that QL has actually been respectfully empowered by the community, including the SWDs, otherwise there wouldn’t have been last night’s debate.
I’m a member of DFW Bi Net, but I can’t speak for all the members, or all bisexuals, but I want my say in the forums which may include me, as a bisexual, or anything else I decide to apply (parent, editor, fat girl, addict, Taurus, activist, whatever). Can Jay and Mike really get up there and say “I am Stonewall Democrats.” Surely you know better.
The guy who mentioned how women’s rights were suffering because the right-wing protestors are out there PROtesting – he’s right. The in-your-face makes a difference. Who cares if Blake acts like an ass or has some character flaw that some dislike? It’s not personal, or shouldn’t be. If Blake doesn’t get along with everyone, well, it’s his group. So what if Jay’s op ed piece is snarky or takes jabs. Bummer. Feel the suck. Complain to your colleagues. Move on, put it behind you. Write your own scathing letter to the editors. There’s work to do. Can I recommend that the visible members of these orgs not continue to cut each other off at the knees, in public or behind the scenes or at all ever?
To Jack E again: If you’re going to disconnect yourself from the gay Dallas scene because you are disgusted, or too poor or too weird as you said earlier here, well then I guess that’s another casualty of LGBT apathy that seems to consume even the best of us. Don’t you think you hold some responsibility and power in the community to be unbiased and still involved?
One question I had that I didn’t have time to ask each of the four men was this: Outside of the desire to be heard, what reason did you have for being there last night?
Ok, stick a fork in me, I’m done rambling.
I found this quote today on Joe.My.God blog. It’s from Michealangelo SIgnorile and is quite appropriate for this dicussion.
“It’s time for these new, even risky approaches, and it’s time to ask for it all — now. That’s why I’m going to Washington for the National Equality March — called for by legendary activists David Mixner and Cleve Jones — even though, like others, I wasn’t initially down with the idea. It’s time the rest of us showed up on the National Mall and let Obama know that the cocktail party crowd — the suck-ups, the sycophants, and the scaredy-cats — doesn’t represent us. We want full equal rights (or at least see a substantial commitment to moving in that direction) — not photo ops and wine spritzers.
“It’s not that I was ever really opposed to the idea of a march. To the contrary, as listeners to my Sirius/XM radio show know, I’ve been talking about marching on Washington ever since the morning after Election Day. For me, it’s been a matter of historical precedent: The black civil rights movement wisely took advantage of a window of opportunity in 1963, when Democrats controlled both the White House and Congress. Republicans could no longer be blamed for the lack of civil rights protections, and marchers knew that media attention would put pressure on the Democrats and shame them into action. We have that same window of opportunity today.” – Activist and SiriusXM host Michelangelo Signorile, in a lengthy Advocate piece.
Read his whole article here: https://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid106718.asp?page=1
Joe: I would describe Blake as completely “unprepared” to be a Leader for LGBT Equality. He has directed his frustration/anger at “making noise,” instead of “making sense.” This isn’t a personal observation, I have never met him. But, I have talked about QL with many people – present and former QL supporters among them.
I don’t think QL has really articulated a useful purpose. Some of us are insulted with this idea that we need to have a “direct action” group at the ready. We are ALL “direct action” when something needs a response. That’s a big problem for QL. If there is nothing to “react” to, they need to invent stuff to prove their value. I think they can be a “direct re-action” group, prepared to organize and demonstrate immediately – if an event demands a response.
So, where does QL find a purpose? That’s a good question and one I wish was raised at the Free Speech debate.
Perhaps Jack and others (like you) in the LGBT Community may see the benefit of holding a “conversation” responding to the all-important question: How and When will LGBT persons achieve full equality? What is the Idea, Strategy and Plan to achieve that goal? How do they compare in terms of resources? Incrementalism is killing us. We DO NOT have a PLAN.
Our community has also been misused by HRC, and other promoters, taking advantage of our frustration and delivering nothing but empty promises. Most of the LGBT advocacy groups work for their paychecks and NOT victory.
We need a way to win. I truly believe that a winning PLAN will actually unite the community and these petty personal disagreements will evaporate.
Thanks for being a sincere participant in this conversation.
– Brian
Brian,
I am so busy at work, and PROMISE I will write a thoughtful response later this evening. What I would say to you is that if you feel that we at QL are not sendint the message that you feel needs to be sent, come to a meeting and tell us that.
Honesty and openness is critical. I will write more later or even better, lets meet up and talk.
Joe