I spoke this morning with a woman who said she is the owner of “The Sign” in Gatesville, Virginia Miller. Before finally hanging up on me, Miller essentially defended the message that’s appeared on the sign for the last three days, “GAY RIGHTS ARE NOT CIVIL RIGHTS.” The message reportedly was paid for by Oen Dollins of Gatesville, a former minister. Miller said Dollins didn’t mean to offend anyone, but merely wanted to point out that gay rights are not the same as African-American civil rights.
“He wanted to get the message to black people that it’s not fair that they’re the ones who suffered, they’re the ones who paid the price, and now everything they fought for is being hijacked,” Miller said.
Miller also claimed she’s received death threats since reports about the sign appeared on Instant Tea and on KCEN Channel 9 in Waco. She said Dollins paid $300 for the message to appear on the sign for three days, from Sunday through Tuesday, and it was taken down last night. Miller said her husband, Bo, carefully screens advertisements for “the Sign” and typically doesn’t allow anything negative. But Bo Miller told Channel 9 that he approved the message because he felt Dollins was making a valid argument. Dollins told KCEN: “It’s nothing to compare with the civil rights movement. No gays are having to ride on the back of the bus. No gays are being enslaved. No gays are being prosecuted [SIC] in any way.”
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I’ve blogged about this here before, but I think it bears repeating. Several years ago, I interviewed Julian Bond about this very issue. Bond, the grandson of a slave, has dedicated his life to advancing civil rights — as an activist who worked alongside Martin Luther King Jr., as a 20-year veteran of the Georgia legislature, as a writer and teacher, and as chairman of the NAACP.
He is among a handful of civil rights leaders who publicly support marriage equality for gays and lesbians, and he challenges those who think that arguing for civil rights for gay Americans somehow diminishes the black experience in the civil rights movement.
“People of color ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others,” he said during the interview, “and that [what we’ve done] has served as a model.”
Bond said the gay and lesbian struggle for marriage equality is a “civil right, not a special right,” so he also challenged the gay community to become more involved the civil rights cause.
“To the degree gays and lesbians join in other struggles for rights, their ability to argue that they expect those rights too will be enhanced,” he said.
“Like race, sexuality isn’t a preference,” Bond said. “It is inborn, and the Constitution protects us all against discrimination based on immutable differences. When I’m asked, ‘Are gay rights civil rights?’ my answer is always, ‘Of course they are.’ Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives – the right to equal treatment before the law. Gay and lesbian rights are not ‘special rights’ in any way. It isn’t ‘special’ to be free from discrimination — it is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship.”
Perhaps Dollins could learn something from Bond.
I understand the reasoning behind the sign when you put it into context. You cannot compare the black struggle with the LGBT struggle. You just can’t do that. But when you just look at that sign, you don’t get that full message. I still believe we need to have a counter message and also place it up there for 3 days.
“It’s nothing to compare with the civil rights movement. No gays are having to ride on the back of the bus. No gays are being enslaved. No gays are being prosecuted [SIC] in any way.”
Sadly this argument equates violance to civil rights, if you have violence prepetrated against you then you “qualify” fo civil rights. A bad specious argument that misses, or rather ignores that our glbti brother and sisters have suffered, and in some cases more, than blacks. Whereas blacks had a safe harbor to weather the storm of discrimination their homes, churches and other meeting places. The glbti person on the otehr hand had no safe harbor at home, most churches rejected them and any place glbti person hang our was generally a point of “easy” arrest by the police.
Blacks did have a very hard row to hoe, but to discount the row assigned the glbti as an easy, and one without discrimination, is a fabrication of the bigoted mind.
Oi. Thank you, John Garinn! Very well referenced.
No, the black/African American experience in fighting for civil rights is not equally comparable to the LGBTA fight for civil rights. However, CIVIL RIGHTS is in the same context: fighting for equality amongst human beings in America. It’s really that simple to define.
The billboard owner’s excuse for displaying a message that expresses bigotry was poor. I don’t buy it.
Tisha, says “I understand the reasoning behind the sign when you put it into context. You cannot compare the black struggle with the LGBT struggle. You just can’t do that.” Tisha, your prejudice is showing. Or is it your black pride, which obviously is superior to your gay pride. Try reading Jon Garinn’s post again. All civil rights struggles are equal.
@Carl. I agree that both movements are valid but you cannot compare when it comes to who got screwed over more. I’m proud of my heritage and my sexuality but hey I’ve been black WAY longer than I’ve been bi. Now that’s out of the way, I agree with Rabbit that the owner has given a flimsy reasoning for the sign. I still believe that we need to place a counter message on this billboard. Join us on https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=146994370032&ref=nf to get this started. If the owners refuse, then we need to take other actions.
While I disagree with the spirit of the message, both the person that purchased the time & the owner of the sign are well within their rights.
“I still believe that we need to place a counter message on this billboard. Join us on https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=146994370032&ref=nf to get this started. If the owners refuse, then we need to take other actions.”
Good idea. Of course, if the owners refuse, they are within their rights to do so. I can’t think of much further action to take except to let the sign go away.
Tish McDaniel said: “I’ve been black WAY longer than I’ve been bi”
This is not exactly the forum, but does go directly to this discussion. By making this statement are you saying that you have not always been bisexual and that this is something you later “chose”? This is an interesting perspective in the whole GLBT discussion.
I have always been gay. I may not have known I was gay but I was gay from way back when. I consider it no different than I have always been male; I have always been left handed; and I have always had blue eyes. I may not have known all those things at birth but with knowledge I discovered them about myself.
If being GLBT is something that we decide on later in life, then I would agree that GLBT rights are not civil rights, unless you make them like religious rights. Because then like one’s choice of religion, one’s sexuality is chosen.
If GLBT is inborn, genetic, then it is exactly like civil rights, because we are prejudiced against in many way.
Examples:
Gay People have been kicked out of homes because they are gay.
Gay People have been denied jobs because they are gay
Gay People have been beaten up because they are gay.
Gay People have not had marriage rights because the are gay.
I could go on, but I think that you could replace the word gay with black and each one of those statements would be true.
Civil rights are not about the past, it is about equality. Gays and blacks come from very different places, yet the desires of each group are the same.
White people, whether gay or straight, should not be the ones to answer that question. Let’s just see what Coretta Scott King had to say on the matter:
“I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”
I had a conversation with a black man (who is about my age), who told me point blank that he didn’t appreciate the glbt movement claiming the two struggles were similar. He went on to point out all of the obvious reasons why.
I responded that I was unaware of any black person from my generation or younger who had to endure what I had to endure growing up in West Texas. After being jumped, expelled from my church (coincidentally, the only church who would take me in was an all black church), having faggot shoe polished on my car, estranged from my family and friends, having trash and coke cans thrown at me, beaten multiple times, and fearing for my very life, I found it equally as offensive that he was even offended.
It is common sense that the two struggles are not the same, and it is also common sense that in both situations, minorities are struggling to obtain equal rights.
Civil Rights simply means the rights of the general public.
Rights, and inclusion for everyone.
There is no argument for this sign. The minister and the owner are trying to justify their un-justifiable actions.
I feel compelled to point out how grotesque it is that a minister would spend $300.00 on a billboard in a town of 16,000 people of which only 27% are African American just to “get the message to black people…”.
He claims it was a benevolent gesture to inform “the black people” who don’t even live there!
how many hungry people could have eaten with that 300.00?
My god, that should be offensive to everyone.
Last one, I promise.
I do agree with you MaxHedrm. You cannot claim to want equal rights for all (freedom of speech being one of the most vital), and then attempt to silence or even force a business to say something they don’t believe.
If the owners of that sign refuse, you can “just let the sign go away”, or you could place a counter message on an adjacent sign owned by someone else who will agree to display the message.
Then again, all of this just seems to be common sense.
In response to lakewoodhobo, I would like to add that Coretta Scott King was also a subject of my interview with Julian Bond back in 2006. She had died earlier that year and Bond, a self-described “longtime friend and neighbor,” chose not to attend her funeral because he didn’t agree with Christians who preached an anti-gay message.
I asked him why there was a disconnect within the black community between those who publicly support marriage equality and those who would deny it, and he said, “surely fear and ignorance play a part, as does selective reading of the Bible.
“There are some Biblical passages many would find difficult to believe or follow, but others many believe and accept without question,” he continued. “Then too, there is political profit to be earned from exploiting homophobia — and some have used this issue to promote their own agendas.”
Well stated.
“Civil Unions” or “Domestic Partnerships” sound a lot like “back of the bus.”
It does not matter whether black or gay – equality is equality.
Marlin, Bi people do have a choice to be gay or be with a person of the opposite sex, so them yes they can be a specific race for longer than they have been bi.. Gay people and straight people do not have that choice. Tisha, yes you can compare to who gets screwed over more. I guess that is just a matter of opinion. I personally believe that gay people have had it much worse than other group fighting for their civil rights regardless of their race. The accusation of a person being gay or openly showing homosexual behavior can cause a person to lose their job, social status, or even their life. Gays were sent to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany for being Gay. They were singled out and treated worse than the other groups who were interred there, leading to a much higher death rate. When the allied troops freed all the other prisoners the gays that survived the camps were sent to other prisons to finish their prison sentences. As far as I am concerned and the consensus of the scientific community is that we all came from Africa if you go back 200,000 years, and we are all simply “people” whether we are gay or straight or of different skin color. I think differences in culture and ethnicity are really amazing and should be celebrated. I also believe that consenting adults should be able to have relationships with whatever other consenting adults they want to. I believe that race separation is a sad, sad and shameful chapter of our history. I think that the modern persecution of sexual orientation is also sad and shameful. Both forms of persecution are long lasting and have historical roots that are strong and will take a lot to change. I would love to see us move into both a post racial, and a post sexuality society.
TO JON GARRIN:
There is no “selective reading of the Bible.” It’s either God’s word or it isn’t, but that’s not really the point. The “truth” is RELIGION is what has defined homosexuality. Religion has made it a sin, deviant, wrong and something to fear. Nothing else has done that. I don’t actually care if someone has religion, but I do care if religion continues to define us – we must end the wrong and re-define who we are. When people hate the get the “idea” from somewhere. For gays and lesbians that idea comes ONLY from religion.
If we don’t have the courage to do that, religion, in whatever flavor or type, will continue to define us. I think we should define ourselves – honestly, colorfully and in a manner that people understand us.
We need to make ourselves and each other more important than religion or we will continue to be hated.
I actually anticipated this comment after I sent the message. I believe there is a certain period in time when a person begins to understand their sexuality. For me, that age was 12. Did I feel something was different about me before the age of 12? Looking back, I would say yes. I’ve always known I was black. That was the point I was trying to make. But I can honestly say that my sexuality has played a bigger role in my becoming an activists than my race. As a minority (black and female), I am protected under the law. As member of the LGBT community, I do not have the same luxury. I will reiterate that trying to make lists about who got screwed more is pointless. The point is that there is no full equality in this country it is up to our community to educate other minority communities that full rights doesn’t end with them.
Black American Hero Julian Bond :
“When someone asks me, ‘Are gay rights civil rights?’ My answer is always, ‘Of course they are.’ Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives. The right to equal treatment before the law. These are the rights shared by everyone. There is no one in the United States who does not or should not enjoy or share in enjoying these rights. Gay and lesbian rights are not special rights in any way. It isn’t special to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary universal entitlement of citizenship.”
“The fact that many had to struggle to gain these rights makes them precious; it does not make them special and it does not reserve them only for me or restrict them from others. Because when others gain these rights, my rights are not diminished in any way. My rights are not diluted when my neighbor enjoys protection from discrimination. He or she becomes my ally in defending the rights we all share. For some people, comparisons between the African-American civil rights movement, the movement for gay and lesbians rights seems to diminish the long black historical struggle with its suffering, sacrifices, and endless toil. However people of color ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others. That our movement has been so widely imitated. That our tactics, our methods, our heroes, our heroines, and even our songs have been appropriated or served as models for others.”
“Many gays and lesbians worked side-by-side with me in the 1960s civil rights movement. Am I now to tell them, Thanks for risking life and limb helping me win my rights, but they’re excluded because of a condition of their birth, that they can’t share now in the victories they helped me to win, that having accepted and embraced them as partners in a common struggle I can now turn my back on them, deny them the rights they helped me win, the rights I enjoy because of them? Not a chance. No.”
“You know President Bush, you remember him? He said marriage is the most fundamental institution of our civilization. Is that precisely why we should support, not oppose gay marriage? We’ve amended the U.S. Constitution only 17 times since the adoption of the Bill of Rights. Aside from prohibition, which was quickly acknowledged to be a mistake and repealed, we’ve amended the Constitution only to expand and protect people’s rights, never to restrict them, never to take them away.”
“Rampant homophobia’s not just wrong. It’s dangerous to our national security.”
Martin Luther King, Jr. Quotes on Gay Rights:
MLK, Jr. and his wife Coretta Scott King on equality for gays/lesbians:
“Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.”[…]
“We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny…I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband.“I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy.”[…]
“Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement,” she said.“Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”
“For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law…I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said,“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On another occasion he said,“I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.” Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others. ”
Thanks to the person that posted this in a comment on one of the blogs – it deserved to be a headline for everyone else to read.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-rights/#SexOri
Gays have been persecuted worldwide for about 2,000 years(Imprisoned, beaten, stoned to death, burned at the stake, tortured, drowned, shot, stabbed, beheaded, denied basic rights, gassed to death in Nazi concentration camps, dragged behind vehicles, hanged, etc.) No, we have not experienced slavery, but we have experienced just about everything else that straight African Americans have, in our own unique way. (Gay blacks have experienced both types of persecution of course).
Brian, it’s unfortunate that you paint religion with such a broad brush. I have been a Catholic all my life, and I am an ordained Catholic priest as well. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world. My decision to sever official ties with the Roman Catholic Church nearly a decade ago was painful and difficult. But it was also unavoidable, especially considering the increasingly discriminatory thinking behind many of the church’s pronouncements.
But the “love the sinner, hate the sin” view in the Catholic Church isn’t restricted to one religion or belief. GLBT people experience discrimination in many faiths. Nor does its influence stop at the walls of the church, mosque, synagogue or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably attributed to a Higher Authority, has provided a reason or excuse for depriving us of our rights for generations.
Without question, the impact of these religious teachings touch every aspect of our lives and enter into the public debate with disproportionate influence. So, you’re right to challenge the role of religion in determining who we are. But it’s also important to understand why many political leaders are reluctant about stepping into this minefield. Religion and tradition are powerful, sensitive areas to challenge. Still, harmful teachings and practices, no matter how ingrained, which justify discrimination against us must be changed.
To my mind, this isn’t about “making ourselves and each other more important than religion.” Rather, it’s about recognizing religion’s importance, and calling upon religious leaders to courageously acknowledge and emphasize the positive messages of dignity and equality that all the world’s major faiths share.
This topic about who suffered more is divisive. If I was just some random black person and I stumbled across this blog, I would think that the gay community is trying to imply that their struggle was more important than the black struggle b/c they’ve suffered longer and worse persecution. I would be then be offended and angered and would not feel inclined to support the gay community in ANY of their endeavors. So I warn that we must be careful about our message. You not only alienate straight blacks but also the many LGBT blacks who feel strongly about their heritage and history.
Tisha said: “This topic about who suffered more is divisive.”
Then, stop bringing it up. Wrong is wrong. You don’t need to compare them.
Please read the parallel article to this — especially the comments. Virginia Miller has responded at that location. Just thought I would let you know.
TO JON GARINN:
Like the rest of us in the Gay Community you must choose either your Religious Beliefs OR Equality. It is very clear that religious beliefs are what has made us WRONG and that must change. Contrary to religious teachings (including Catholics) we are NOT WRONG. Until we fix that we will continue to suffer the hatred and discrimination those beliefs create.
Moderation is not the answer. We must talk about religion and confront those teachings. This is the truth: A Mormon tied Mathew Shepherd to a fence and a Baptist beat him to death. Shortly after Representative Virginia Foxx called it a “hoax.” She is a Catholic.
For thousands of years homosexuals have been defined by Religion. It’s untrue and it’s unfair.
Andrew Sullivan (also Catholic) has a very interesting debate with Sam Harris regarding Faith. You can find it here:
https://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Secular-Philosophies/Is-Religion-Built-Upon-Lies.aspx
I have “faith” in my fellow gay and lesbian Brothers and Sisters, not in Religion. Religion will not help us achieve equality – in fact, they have lead the effort against it by making us wrong.
I hope you consider what’s more important here – our freedom and equality OR ancient, superstitious beliefs. I think it’s very odd that many gay people support the institution that caused all our pain and suffering – religion. It simply doesn’t make sense.
With all due respect, Brian, I must say that I completely disagree with you, as do many thoughtful people within the gay community. But you seem fairly set in your position, so engaging you in a debate about this issue may be pointless.
Jon:
If you DISAGREE, then kindly tell me and the “many thoughtful people in the gay community” WHAT makes homosexuality WRONG?
Google it. Everyone that has given it thought has concluded that RELIGION is the ONLY thing that makes it WRONG.
If you are saying you are okay with belonging to the institution that makes you wrong – I can only conclude you have made your “faith” more important than your self and your community.
Brian, you seem very hostile toward religion. And you seem content to stereotype people of faith — an offense you are quick to criticize in others. It strikes me that mature adults can engage in a civil discourse that is thoughtful and nuanced without having to resort to such rancor, suspicion and outright hostility. Why make me and other people of faith your enemy? We’re simply trying to be a bridge between our community and other people of faith who could, potentially, become our allies.
Dignity, huh?
WHY DOESN’T DIGNITY/DALLAS WORSHIP AT A CATHOLIC CHURCH?
Initially, Dignity chapters were welcome at Catholic churches. In fact, some bishops supported Dignity as an “unofficial” ministry to gay and lesbian Catholics. On Oct. 30, 1986, the Vatican issued a “Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.” This document instructed the bishops to withdraw all support, or even the semblance of support, from any group that was vague on the immorality of homogenital acts. Surely the Vatican had Dignity in mind. And many found the letter harsh and uninformed. At DignityUSA’s national convention in 1987, the organization declared that it believes lesbian and gay people may indeed engage in loving, life-giving, and life-affirming sex, always in an ethically responsible and unselfish way. By proclaiming publicly what Church teaching does allow — but only in the privacy of conscience — bishops began evicting local chapters for rejecting Church teaching and, most important, for opposing ecclesiastical authority.
WHY DID DIGNITY TAKE SUCH A PUBLIC STAND AGAINST CHURCH TEACHING?
Dignity felt called to a prophetic stance, which, simply said, is to be honest about the matter. After nearly 20 years of ministering to hurting Catholics, Dignity members were aware of the harm that the Church’s repeated condemnation of homosexuality does to individuals. One statement from a pope or bishop can throw devout gay Catholics back into guilt and self-deprecation that they may have spent years trying to overcome. Dignity wanted to go on record as a group of homosexual but self-affirming and practicing Catholics, thereby giving hope to other GLBT Catholics.
So, is it still WRONG at Dignity Dallas?
Jon:
Please answer the question: What makes homosexuality wrong? Hint: It has for +2,000 years.
People of Faith? 1% of the churches in the US “welcome gays” and at the same time continue to make it “wrong.” The other 99% based on their beliefs hate and fear homosexuals. Are you suggesting that groups like Dignity Dallas are going to convince the other 99% to give up their beliefs? Do you need another 1,000 years.
It is very simple – RELIGION makes homosexuality WRONG. Nothing else.
The good news is religion appears to be going out of business. One-third of all young people (under 25) are now “non-religious” and they DO NOT make gays wrong. In 40-50 years the non-religious will be the new majority. It should happen soon, but too many people are afraid to take on the one thing that has defined us – religion.
If you really care about gay people you would want to stop the source of our suffering, unless you think that is appropriate. I don’t have anger at religion, I know what it is. I have profound disappointment at people who put religion before their fellow gay brothers and sisters.
Of course the fight for African-American civil rights and gay civil rights is not the same. But both groups were, and are, fighting against discrimination. There is no doubt about it, gay rights ARE the same as civil rights.
Right now gay people are the only group that is legally discriminated against at the state and government levels. Our own government has enshrined into law that gay people are unequal to the rest of society. They are not permitted to marry the person they fall in love with; and they are not permitted to fight for our country unless they pretend to be straight. Both of these measures are so offensive that anyone with the smallest amount of empathy for civil rights should be outraged that this is taking place in America.
By the way, why is religion protected in our country when people CHOOSE their religious beliefs? Yet if gay people were to CHOOSE their orientation (which they don’t), it is NOT protected. Sounds a lot like discrimination doesn’t it?
Alas, Brian, this debate has become tiresome to me and, I suspect, to anyone out there who may have bothered to follow the thread this far. There is no reasoning with radicals.
The entire idea behind the message on the billboard is to create a wedge. The Right has learned how to split minorities up so instead of fighting the common enemy that threatens them all, they fight each other over who has been more oppressed, suffered the most, or who deserves more attention. Meanwhile, the Right gets to continue stealing everyone’s rights from underneath us…
Jon Garinn:
I think it’s very clear that you simply refuse to acknowledge that RELIGION made Homosexulaity “wrong” because you receive income being an employee of Religion.
You had 3 chances to answer very simple questions and chose to berate the questioner, instead of being honest. Who’s the “righteous one” here?
Now, “asking questions” about religion is “radical?”
There’s no reason for me to offer an answer to any of your questions, Brian, because you ask them rhetorically. For your information, I am not an “employee of Religion.” I am an employee of The Dallas Morning News, where I work as a writer and editor in the advertising department.
I minister at my church the same way many people minister at theirs — by volunteering my time and giving my own resources. I do not profit financially from my association with Dignity/Dallas. f you want to call that being an “employee of Religion,” so be it.
Brian, you seem obsessed with having to prove your point. You’ll simply have to find someone else to goad into your one-sided debate. I’m not in any way berating you as a person. You condemn yourself. Your own remarks make clear that you espouse an extremist viewpoint. You continually make sweeping generalizations and refuse to acknowledge that there may be any other way of looking at an issue except your own. It appears as though you have no interest whatsoever in building bridges with our allies in various religions. Quite frankly, that is counterproductive to any effort at achieving full equality.
Quoting Tisha: “You cannot compare the black struggle with the LGBT struggle. You just can’t do that. ……….I agree that both movements are valid but you cannot compare when it comes to who got screwed over more. ….I will reiterate that trying to make lists about who got screwed more is pointless. This topic about who suffered more is divisive. …. I would think that the gay community is trying to imply that their struggle was more important than the black struggle b/c they’ve suffered longer and worse persecution. I would be then be offended and angered and would not feel inclined to support the gay community in ANY of their endeavors. So I warn that we must be careful about our message. You not only alienate straight blacks but also the many LGBT blacks who feel strongly about their heritage and history. ”
Tisha, I appreciate the way you’ve articulated your point of view here. And I agree with you in part–both movements (civil rights for African-Americans and civil rights for GLBT) ARE valid, and it IS pointless to try to keep a scorecard of who has suffered more.
Just like it would be pointless to compare the wrongs against African-Americans in the course of civil rights struggles to the wrongs against Jews throughout history (Hmmm….6 million people exterminated in the Holocaust v. 200 years of slavery. Which is worse?).
Or to the wrongs against women throughout history. Or to the wrongs against Latinos. Or the treatment of Asian-Americans, including virtual enslavement of Chinese workers in the 1800s, and the mass internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. Or the treatment of some Muslim Americans in the aftermath of 9/11.
But ALL of these movements ARE about civil rights. And it is absolutely offensive to GLBT people to have African-Americans deny that, as if they are trying to corner the market on suffering. ( I’m guessing that since you are at the intersection of 3 of these groups–woman, African-American, GLBT–you understand that as well.)
Where I would diverge with your point of view is where you seem to suggest that GLBT persons shouldn’t engage African-Americans who deny that GLBT rights are civil rights. Older, more conservative, more religiously-oriented African-Americans may not want to hear this message, may not want to identify their own struggles with those whom they regard as immoral. But it is important that these African-Americans confront their own bigotry with respect to this issue.
I think that is where GLBT people in the African-American community have a big role to play in bridging the gap, in making people on both sides of the issue understand that it’s NOT a competition about who suffered more, that all people who have been denied civil rights are engaged in the same struggle.
I would be very interested to hear the perspective of a person in your position about what you believe is the most effective way to deliver this message to people in the African-American community. I get that you think it’s NOT effective to get in a contest about who as suffered more. But how would you approach getting broader buy-in?
Alas Jon,
Then we agree on the main point: Religion is the ONLY thing that makes Homosexuality WRONG.
I’m pleased you “volunteer” your time to Religion Inc., and you remain concerned about equality. How about at your next meeting you have a conversation about “religion making homosexuals wrong.” Try that conversation – it’s important. Go ahead, they can’t exactly fire you.
If you want to see the evidence of the violence perpetrated every day against the gay community, you needn’t go any further than your own police sheet in your local paper. Just in the last two weeks we have seen the Texas Alcohol Bureau bash patrons at a gay bar leaving one man injured for life (which is a common occurance), and in the last few months young teenagers (one as young as 10) committing suicide because of the hate spewed at them at school. This is a civil rights issue that is killing us. Many people do not hear of the atrocities committed against us, and when many do, they cheer. It is truly a sad comment on the state of our society.
I’m with you Brian. So much of this debate would not exist without all the holy books that say queers are immoral. I’ve been an atheist for 23 years. African Americans don’t take to atheism much and neither do women for that matter. I’ve always thought it had to do with justice. Religion offers justice in the afterlife. When justice is available to ALL of us on this earth, I think those who cling to religion will begin to loosen their grip. Until then, we have to wait until society is ready to rewrite the bible about homosexuality as it did about slavery and stoning women for not being virgins, etc. People have already started.
The bible is very pro slavery and not just the old testament. However, if you bring that up today, some one will say, “You’ve taken the passage out of context”. Everyone is now a biblical scholar and knows what the “holy” text really means. American religious leaders were front and center of the slavery debate spewing those passages as proof that slavery is acceptable. If the pro slavery passages are taken out of context, why didn’t “Thou shalt not own slaves” make it into the 10 Commandments. That’s more important than:
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20, verse 17
Did you catch that part about the slaves? It’s okay to have one, but you better not covet the neighbor’s slave – utterly disgusting. We like to shorten that one to do not covet because otherwise we’re taking the text out of context.
It’s always been baffling to me that African American churches condemn homosexuality using the bible, but pretend the pro slavery stuff isn’t there. Of course, white people do the same. I guess reality is too ugly to face sometimes.
Religious people believe they are exempt from having to answer questions from atheists. It happens to me all the time. One time I asked a religious lady about why Lott was considered righteous after offering his own daughters up to a mob to be raped. She asked her priest. The priest responded that it was too complex to explain. I imagine it is complex to rationalize such evil. It’s much easier to dismiss us as extremists.
I am an extremist. I am an extremist about reason, evidence, equality and anti-violence. That is why I’m an atheist and stay way the hell away from the “morals” in the bible.
Gays have been, hung, mutilated, kicked out of their homes, denied work, forced out of the military, abused by and beaten by police and others, forced into concentration camps, starved, literally tarred and feathered, thrown off ships to drown, bullied in school (some during their entire schooling), publicly humiliated and scorned and more. I could add to this list EASILY.
To say that our asking for equal rights is nothing like blacks asking for the same thing is not only ignorant of hundreds of years of history, but is also insulting and a prime example of yet MORE abuse aimed at all gay and lesbian people.
Anyone who says differently is simply ignoring the truth. We’re all humans and deserve to be treated with respect. Sexual preference is not a logical reason to deny another human dignity.
Obviously when examining the scope and scale of any civil rights movement you will find that every group that has suffered persecution has had to face different challenges. The black civil rights movement had to overcome innumerable obstacles, from slavery to the segregation, all while being unable to “hide” as an LGBT person can (by staying closeted). But at the end of the day, every struggle and every fight for any civil right, regardless of which gender, race, sexuality or creed, is a fight and struggle for everyone. For one group to win a civil liberty and than turn around and oppress another is an insult to those who fight and suffered for that right before them. Marriage used to be segregated and limited based on race – that is obviously no longer the case but now the very people who fought for those rights are turning around and oppressing another group, judging love between two men or two women the way their love was judged between a white person and a person of color. It is the responsibility of everyone to fight to keep their civil liberties but also to make sure that the oppression that they suffered, or their parents suffered, or yes in the case of African Americans their great great great grandparents suffered, are not passed onto onto the grandchildren of any other minority.
Kerrie, I don’t believe for a moment that religious people are “exempt from answering questions from atheists.” The problem with you and Brian is that neither of you are asking questions. Rather, you’re making statements in the form of questions. Consequently, it’s impossible for us to engage in a conversation.
Conversation comes from the same root word as conversion. So in order for true conversation to take place, there must exist the possibility that the parties participating in the dialogue will experience a conversion. It strikes me that your extremist viewpoint has little to do with reason, since your worship of reason is at the expense of being reasonable. To opine that discrimination against gay people is completely attributable to religion reveals how little you know about the world’s religions in particular and human history in general. Religion is not the problem and atheism is not the solution. We have serious issues to address, and we need serious people to address them.
To Brian, I would like to say that I feel you are a tad ignorant and one-sided here. Episcopals accept gays and I would assume that they comprise more than one percent of religion since there are 77-million of them, and not yet 7.7 billion people in the world, much less who believe in religion. Also the United Church of Christ, Metropolitan Community Church, many Lutherans, Presbyterians and other denominations that accept gays. More are being added as time progresses.
While I agree that Religion is mostly responsible for homophobia, its roots also lie in sexism as well. Religions claiming the Bible or some part of its books that they have deemed as sacred as the basis, should be blamed for what they are, not the sacred texts themselves. While not ‘written by God’ or non-contradictory, the sacred writings included in the so-called Bible, are not anti-gay at all. Even the Catholic/Protestant-selected books prove to be supportive of same-sex love. David and Jonathon had an explicitly homosexual relationship while Ruth and Naomi had an implied same-sex relationship as well. Jesus himself said that eunuchs are ‘born that way’. Jesus healed a centurions gay lover and made and example of the centurion as having ultimate faith that all others should model theirs after. One of the first Christian converts was a eunuch for whom Philip witnessed to and exclaimed ‘all you must do is believe’ rather than tell him that he must become heterosexual. All of these accounts are found in the mainstream Bibles, though it is the religious homophobia that ignores them, and censors ‘certain details’ of these stories. Just as the etymology of the word ‘sodomite’ does not refer to a homosexual as it does today or a specific sex act, many other topics have been erroneously mistranslated to promote homophobia.
Condemning an idolatrous ritual of temple prostitution that involved a homosexual sex act, but translating its descriptors ‘arsenokoitai’ and ‘malakoi’ as referring to all homosexual people is as stupid as the woman at the well’s sin being reported as “heterosexuality”. So yes, religion is to blame for misconstruing inspired texts to promote homophobia, but I wouldnt say that the true original essence of that religion is to blame.
On Tisha’s comment, Id like to point out that I dont care if anyone finds historical facts as offensive. It is my opinion that if someone has access to the internet to read these comments, they should not be ignorant in the first place. Having access to the internet while existing in the year 2009 does not provide any excuse for a person who is ignorant. It provides an excuse of pathetic-ness and uninspiration. So, I apologize if someone who watches mtv while browsing youtube and facebook all day is offended. Votes will not ultimately determine the validity of our civil rights, no, it is the intellect of the court judges who will determine this. If the general public wants to waste their capacities of knowledge and our infinite resource ‘the internet’, then their opinions I do cannot respect. Im personally disgusted whenever I read that some black person out there is ‘offended’ with our comparisons. The first recorded religious-sanctioned execution of a gay person occurred in 1292 by the Catholic Church, and that was not even the beginning.
“Marriage used to be segregated and limited based on race – that is obviously no longer the case but now the very people who fought for those rights are turning around and oppressing another group…”
GLA, I think it is a stretch to say these oppressors are “the very people who fought for the rights of interracial couples.
The couple who succeeded in overturning the racist marriage laws were the lovings, and Mildred Loving made a very impassioned speech not long before she died on why her case was about marriage rights for all people, no matter their race or sex or orientation.
Martin Luther King’s mentor Bayard Rustin was gay, and Coretta Scott King fought till her death for equal rights for everyone, saying that her husband’s dream was not about black people but about ALL people. She refered to the brave gay people who fought side by side with her and her husband for the rights of black people even “when they could find few voices for their own.”
The church organizations in America that are most outspoken against gender-neutral marriage rights are for the most part exactly the same ones that opposed race-neutral marriage rights, and those that supported equality then for blacks are the ones that still support equality in the case of gay people now.
Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, all the real heroes of the civil rights around the world recognize that equal rights are deserved by all people, and gay people no less than anyone else.
The heroes of the civil rights movement (black and white alike) are not the ones who need any convincing on this. I think i’s the ones who sat and watched it on TV or heard about it later at school (including those Johnny-Come-Lately white people who opposed black rights when they weren’t popular as well as those blacks who were never on the trenches of civil rights by any stretch) who tend to oppose this.
Jon,
I thought you Catholics stopped using Latin. (By the way, have you always been Catholic?)
If not Religion, then what has so successfully made us wrong? (That was a question – not a statement in the form of a question) It’s not science, or nature and it’s certainly not reasoned non-believers.
The purpose of conversation is the sharing of “ideas,” after all that’s all we really have. Your religion is an idea. Nothing more, nothing less. It isn’t truth – that would take “faith,” and surely you know that faith is defined as “the ability to believe something you cannot prove.”
So, here we are. You believe something you cannot prove and I believe what everyone knows, but are too chicken to actually say – RELIGION is the one thing that has made homosexuality WRONG. It’s time to end that “wrong.”
Gays and Lesbians will never have equality unless we re-define ourselves and reject the definition we were given by religion – ALL religion. Before Religion (Christianity) gay was not “wrong,” after religion gay was wrong. That is the truth.
I am not wrong. My gay friends are not wrong. My gay community is not wrong.
So, please go spread the Gospel of equality and fairness.
Brian says:
It isn’t truth – that would take “faith,” and surely you know that faith is defined as “the ability to believe something you cannot prove.”
And then in the next breath says Before Religion (Christianity) gay was not “wrong,” after religion gay was wrong. That is the truth.
Morons have often said Truth is relative, but most of those morons in the same breath don’t make a Truth claim; I now will introduce to you – Brian, the exceptional moron who does just that. Thanks Brian – we all need a “gay” a laugh now nad then.
Time to yank that tax exempt status.
Mark:
Read it again. The “truth” part is that Religion made gay “wrong.” Simple history lesson. Look it up. Unless you think something else has made gay wrong?
Drewboo:
There are 2 million Episcopalians in the US out of 250 million religious believers.
Only 1% of the 350,000 Churches in the US “accept” or, your words, “welcome” gays and lesbians. But, they still make them “wrong.” It is still part of their doctrine that “homosexuality is a sin and homosexuality is wrong.” That’s not progress.
So, the Churches you’ve mentioned are “marketing” to the gays and lesbians, but not changing anything about them. Religion doesn’t make any sense (to begin with), but gays as members of the one thing that makes them “wrong,” well, that’s just delusional.
At the risk of prolonging this exceptionally long thread, I must admit that I’ve been giving Brian’s rants some thought, especially after re-watching “For the Bible Tells Me So” (which, if you haven’t seen it, you should!). Brian is basically trying to separate a contemporary understanding of homosexuality from its religious influences. Unless we turn to the cave men for guidance, the task would be impossible because religion — in some form or another — has been around almost as long as humanity itself. I’m not suggesting that religion has played no role whatsoever in our contemporary understanding of homosexuality. Of course it has. And religion has certainly been more destructive than constructive in its treatment of homosexuality. Still, I think the best thing is not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Brian needs to expand his vision.
From an anthropological perspective, homosexuality has multiple meanings. Our culture tends to limit it to a sexual orientation characterized by an aesthetic attraction to, a romantic love and a sexual desire for people of the same sex or gender identity. But it can also refer to a manifestation of that orientation in the identity of an individual which may or may not be at odds with that person’s sexual behavior. And, it can refer to sexual relations with another of the same sex regardless of one’s sexual orientation, self-identification or gender identity.
I guess we could say there are homosexualities. Which is precisely the problem with religion. It has yet to nuance its understanding of same-sex relationships to account for these various expressions. The biblical authors clearly did so, but many faith traditions seem unwilling or unable to follow suit.
Anthropologist Stephen O. Murray groups homosexuality into three categories: egalitarian (exemplified by relationships in Western societies between partners of similar age and gender), gender structured (exemplified by traditional relations between men in the Mediterranean basin, the Middle East and Central and South Asia, as well as shamanic gender-changing practices seen in native societies) and age structured (exemplified by the erotic apprenticeships of Classical Greece or those engaged in by novice samurai with more experienced warriors, southern Chinese boy-marriage rites, and ongoing Central Asian and Middle Eastern practices).
In North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia, where gender- and age-structured relationships are the rule, male homosexual practices are widespread, engaged in by many individuals who do not regard themselves as homosexual.
Historically, in areas where same-sex relationships were embedded in the secular culture, such as Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, parts of Melanesia and pre-modern Japan, homosexual relationships were engaged in by a majority of the male population.
Are we to assume, then, that in “pre-religion” or staunchly secular societies that homosexuality is morally neutral? Only if you think of homosexuality in terms of sexual activity rather than monogamous relationship. In other words, it’s OK to play as long as you come home to your wife and kids.
Like the very religious traditions he condemns, Brian fails to nuance his understanding of homosexuality. Moreover, he fails to take into account the lasting effects of patriarchy and misogyny, which have deeper anthropological roots than religion.
This Preacher is about as much a christian an a billy goat. Bigotry and prejudice are the Rev’s religion, he had best get on his knees and ask forgiveness for his unholy soul, before the God has his say in the matter.
John Garinn:
There is no need to “nuance” anything. You can dribble confusion, but it’s really very simple. The only institution to vilify homosexuality is religion. This remains true no matter how many times you try to make it complicated – although the “confusing 3 types of homosexuals” is fascinating. I don’t think you can talk over anyones head with that analysis.
Your group – Dignity Dallas meets at the Cathedral of Hope, a United Church of Christ Church. While the Cathedral of Hope “welcomes gay and lesbians” the truth is “homosexuality is still a major sin (like murder) and it is still wrong.” The UCC make a “marketing decision” to welcome homosexuals, but never changed the doctrine. Episcopalians haven’t either. None have.
So, for that past 2,000 years religion has made homosexuality wrong. Christians used to support black oppression and slavery. They used to be against womens rights. What about homosexuals, Jon? Why not change official doctrine for gays? Otherwise, you’re spending your time and energy with the enemy.
If none of the above logic moves you, think about this: Every year +1,500 GAY teenagers commit suicide and almost every case “religion” made them do it. You see, they were born “wrong” and their parents tried to have them “fixed.” They were teased at school because the other children knew (religiously) that they were “defective.” When you choose religion over OUR equality – you sanction these deaths.
This is a serious conversation and it does require that people (especially gay people) recognize the damage religion has done and continues to do. Any effort to allow it to continue is shameful.
It not WRONG to be a homosexual Jon (practicing or not). Tell your Church to change their doctrine – a doctrine that has caused damage to your community – or sleep in on Sundays. The only way gays and lesbians will ever be “equal” is to end the Wrong religion has branded us with. WE ARE NOT WRONG. Contributing to the enemy is wrong.
From The Advocate:
“The leader of the Episcopal Diocese of Dallas refuses to acknowledge recent church moves that he calls a “green light” to the blessing of same-sex marriage, reports The Dallas Morning News.”
Episcopalians are really “welcoming” of gays, huh?
Homosexuality is still WRONG for Episcopalians – even if the star of “For the Bible Tells Me So” Bishop Gene Robinson wants gays to think otherwise. It can’t be Gay-friendly” if you’re still “wrong.”
Jon Garrin:
Let’s see… you said I know very little about the world’s religion and history, and then you said I wasn’t serious enough to discuss this issue. You sir, are insulting. I can’t believe it…a religious man saying a woman is too ignorant to speak. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Oh wait, the bible is your guide. Now I get it. Sacred texts love their misogyny.
I don’t think I wrote enough for you to make such a judgment. And I’m pretty you’re your god wouldn’t want you to do all that judging (Matthew 7 verse 1). From what you wrote, I don’t think you know much about atheists (atheists are allowed to judge). I’ve never met an atheist who didn’t have a love of knowledge. I’ve also never met an atheist who couldn’t become a believer if proper evidence was provided. It’s the theists who say that nothing could change their minds. If one of the gods came down and put on a good show, I bet I would believe. The problem is gods prefer to talk to one person and typically alone – like on a mountaintop. My problem is I’m not a mountain climber.
I never said that religion is the sole reason for heterosexism, but it is a large part. Some people just think homosexuality is icky.
The bible will be rewritten to allow for an acceptance of homosexuality in the future. I just wish the all knowing all loving god could have been a bit more forward thinking in regards to homosexuality, slavery, violence, child abuse, equality and women’s issues. There is no context, past or future that should allow for slavery or all the violence in the bible.
At the very least, theists should be open to the fact that we look at the passages about slavery, women and the creation of the universe very differently than we did 150 years ago. Our views on these issues have changed because our morals have changed and science has flourished. The passages about homosexuality will soon become just more passages that people are taking out of context – and that will be a better day for all of us.
The burden of proof regarding the existence of gods is on you, Jon. However, since this is off topic and I’ve heard all the “no evidence” arguments before, we should move on.
Dear Jon:
I think Kerrie makes very valid points. The difference between myself and Kerrie is that I am not an Atheist. After being “taught” about homosexuality when I was very young and being “made into” a Christian – I was a believer. When I grew older (and educated) I explored religion – or religions (34,000 at last count) and concluded ALL of them were STORIES. If held as an “ideal,” (wouldn’t it be great if …) they don’t do harm. If held as “truth,” they destroy people – especially gays and lesbians. Plus, how does one pick the “winner?” Lotto has better odds.
I concluded that I couldn’t actually “disprove” the existence of a higher being (or God) so, I settled on “I don’t know, neither do you, and that’s okay.” If I actually thought someone “did” know – I’d be pissed. But, none of us “know.”
I live in a world of possibility and I grant that almost anything is possible. I do not use these beliefs to harm anyone. I also understand – from a historical perspective and an honest understanding of religion, that it is ONLY religion that has defined gays/homosexuals. It has been brutal, hateful and very damaging – and IT’S JUST A STORY.
I remain disappointed that you put religion before the rights of your gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. When you support any religion that continues to make “homosexual wrong” you contribute to our suffering and continued discrimination. Of course, you are free to believe whatever “story” you choose, but why choose a story that condemns us?
Religion has branded Homosexuality and caused ALL our pain. It’s time to end THAT wrong.
Brian,
One slight correction regarding atheism – atheists don’t claim to disprove a negative because you can’t. Being an atheist just means after reviewing the evidence, there is nothing to support the claim. That’s why faith gets brought into the conversation.
Nobody believes in Zeus, the Easter Bunny, or that a giant teapot created the universe, but we don’t waste our time trying to disprove their existence. It’s the same with atheism. It’s the same with science. If after enough studies have shown something not to be effective, we just move on. We don’t keep after it. Republicans try this with abstinence only curriculum etc., but it just makes them look silly.
I grew up in Gatesville, but it wasn’t easy being one of the few gay kids around. There are some great people there, and Gatesville still has a smalltown, conservative, pro-Republican, believe-what-you’re-told attitude. I love my hometown, but could never live there again. This sign just proves to me it was a good thing to get out after high school.
Kerrie and Brian, you both seem bitter, hostile and angry. I’m not one of those “piety in the skyety” believers who believes in winning you over with kindness. Some unhappiness is so deeply embedded that it will never become anything more than toxic waste. One thing seems clear: neither of you are willing or able to engage in a dialogue about these issues without resorting to rancor, suspicion and outlandish accusations. So be it. It’s unfortunate, really, because we might have opened this thread up to a serious discussion about the influence of religion and faith on homosexuality. That is obviously not going to happen, and through no fault of my own. When you’re ready to start this discussion from a neutral corner, ring the bell and I’ll enter the ring.
You know, I was going to leave a message here referring to each of you in kind but I’ve now decided to change that.
Instead I’m going to say something that is going to produce alot of hateful comments (which in itself is what you are trying to fight against) and will probably stick a burr in some of you all’s bottom furr, but after reading this thread and others like it, I see no reason not to share my opinion as the rest of you have.
I am white, I am a female, I am straight, I was raised in a non-denominational church and I live in Gatesville Texas. These are all things that I am proud of, and as a free American (as are you, regardless of sex, race, religion, etc) we all have the right to choose who we are, who we want to be and how we want to live.
I agree with you all on that, but where my opinion differs (and it is only just my opinion, and not that of how I was raised), I believe that you can fight for civil rights until the world implodes on itself, and whether you win or lose, you never really win and nothing is ever really going to change. Its one fight today but it will be another one tomorrow. Prime example of this, which happens to piss me off more than anything, is when I hear someone say ‘its cuz I’m black’! And do you know what my answer to that is? My answer is yes! That’s what you want to hear and so that is what I will say. It is because you are black. It is because you were raised in the unfortunate mentality that you are owed something because of your skin color. It is because you were told somewhere along the line that you were different and that is why people will treat you different, pick on you, harrass you, make fun of you. It is because you chose to believe that. My best friend of 17 yrs is black and no matter how many hardships she has had to endure, I have never heard her use that excuse. Excuses are not reasons.
Another example, ‘you don’t know the neighborhood I come from, I have to steal, kill and do drugs. Its who I am.’ Well guess what, you’re wrong! It is a choice to follow those examples, to follow that crowd to prison and who knows what else. Quit using everything and everybody around you as an excuse, quit dropping out of school and go make something of yourself!
Everybody is fighting for something. Everybody feels they have the hardest obstacles to overcome. And everybody has a long ways to go. My point with those examples is that no matter how much is accomplished in this never ending fight for Civil Rights, its just that- never ending. And why do I say this? Ignorance, that’s why. People choose to be ignorant and in their ignorance there are excuses. As much as it is a liberation for those fighting for it, it is a strong hold, a point of comfort, for others. They are comfortable with their excuses because they believe that it excuses their behavior. It excuses the way they act and the way they treat others.
I was raised to see no color barriers. I was raised that if a person wants to sleep with another person of the same sex, then let them because at the end of the night, I won’t be the one sharing their bed. I was raised that if a man can do a job then a woman can too. I was raised under the “Golden Rule” of ‘Do Unto Others’. I was raised that if you do wrong, you admit it and do what you can to fix it. In all of this what I am trying to say is that we all have our own beliefs and standards. Until we can all learn to live with each other, regardless of personal belief, nothing will change. Just keep fighting, but for the right reasons and not the wrong.
I commend each and every one of you for standing up for what you believe in, but in doing so please don’t step on the progress of others. Bashing those that don’t agree with you and your beliefs is no better than them bashing you and yours.
With all of that said, I would like to say that I saw that billboard driving to and from work last week and although I don’t agree with how that message was put out there, I do not believe that it will benefit anyone or any cause for there to be any kind of gathering or protest. Gatesville is a small, quiet law a biding town and we don’t need any more negative attention than we have already had with that sign. The opinion of one does not speak for us all.
Jon Garinn”
You actually said this: “One thing seems clear: neither of you are willing or able to engage in a dialogue about these issues without resorting to rancor, suspicion and outlandish accusations.”
You have used 4 occasions (replies) to say the same thing – nothing. You are unable to answer any questions or defend your love of Religion. Nobody in the comments did anything but attempt reasonable conversation.
You also said: “It’s unfortunate, really, because we might have opened this thread up to a serious discussion about the influence of religion and faith on homosexuality.”
The “influence” of religion and faith? Influence? Religion has “defined” homosexuality. It has branded homosexuals as sinner, deviants and defective.
You can keep ignoring the obvious in what appears to be an attempt to keep your “Dallas Dignity” bunch BLIND to the truth.
Religion caused the pain and suffering of gay people and you are one of the “enablers” today.
Hey Missy.. I have to congradulate you for that awesome message… There are so many in the world that need to be taught to “LOVE THEMSELVES” first and foremost but it would seem that most of them waste precious time on this earth trying to fit in, be popular, superior etc.
Bashing the basher just breeds more hate in the world and leads to more isolation. Instead, why don’t more people ask the basher why they’re filled with so much hate? What is so bad about two people sharing love an affection for one another?
The excuses are crap… and no, not all people live in a central box that defines them all. But still we continue to behave that way.. If one man shaves all the hair off his head and looks sexy then the rest of the sheep have to blindly do the same..
If one judges another for their religion, or livestyle and they are a popular figure, then the rest tend to do the same as well. Have they forgotten to ask why? Have they forgotten that each and every one of us on this crazy planet is totally unique?
I’m a gay men who’s also a Pagan Witch married to another gay men who’s an Old Catholic ArchBishop for 14 years and it doesn’t matter what you call your spiritual higher power so long as you Love yourself, Love your neighbor, and Love your creator.. Simple as that.
Should I bash you because you may lack some of the emotional turmoil that gay people experience? Hell No.. Instead I would be more happy to share things with you, help with chores, watch the kids if needed and be a big brother figure not some pissy complaining bitch with her panties in a wad when things don’t go their way.
I refuse to demand a carbon copy of myself and equate that to friends.. I have enough of my own flaws and there’s no need to around others who are the same.. Where’s the prosperous growth in that?
But sadly, in all groups, there is *always* an ALPHA to the group.. Even in the animal kingdom the same holds true.. Those in the same group become focused on control.. and focused on competing to be the best at all times instead of focusing on compassion for each other.
Human rights will never end.. and there will always be conflict. Ask 10 people for their opionion on something and you’ll get 20 answers. But remember this.. “birds of a feather flock together” and “misery loves company” the more miserable you are the more miserable people you attract. And let’s use the shyness excuse not to ask the neighbor next door if he can help you rake your leaves in exchange for a nice home cooked meal.. Let’s lock ourselves in out homes in fear of being taken advantage of, or hurt by another. The more we close our doors and isolate ourself the less we have to fear..
Ohh year.. but once we totally isolate ourselves, then we begin to bitch about how lonely we are.. Wahhhhh…. Booo Hooo Hoo.. Waaaaahhhh And who do we blame for all this? OURSELVES!!
As for me,, I’m a big boy who likes people.. I don’t necessarily like everyone I know.. but I don’t waste precious time judging them either.. I don’t care what apendage you have between your legs and I will always be respectful and willing to learn in the process and I will always try to do the thigns that interest me but neve cause harm agains another.
Sometimes I wish there were more around here like that.. but isntead, there always has to be a contrast of good vs. bad and without one, the other will also cease to exist. So I just do my best to remind myself of this knowing that in time things will take their natural course because they can never be absolutely good.. or absolutely bad forever.
Thanks again for that great comment…. I’m sure others will chime in with narrow minded complaints but I truly appreciate what you’ve said here.
All I have to say is I live in gatesville and I love the fact that we can still have free speech. long live the sign. and they should be able to write whatever they want on it’ and they should not have to write anything they dont feel comfortable posting. i fought diligintly in iraq for that freedom and i personally would like to see a little more respect for it. I don.t go throw eggs at the gay parade. cause i believe all gays and lesbians should have their freedoms too. if i dont want to aknowledge gays and lesbians i dont have to, and if they dont want to aknowledge the sign, they dont have to.