I haven’t yet seen “8: The Mormon Proposition,” but from what I’ve read, the story starts with the LDS church’s involvement in the defeat of same-sex marriage in Hawaii 12 years ago. From The Los Angeles Times:
The documents revealed how, in a 1998 campaign in Hawaii, the Mormon Church helped to stop same-sex marriage through inconspicuous association with other denominations, such as Roman Catholics. The experience laid the groundwork for the Prop. 8 battle, during which many Mormons were encouraged to make donations to the California campaign, some of which, the film contends, were hidden. Consequently, the amount of money the Mormon Church contributed to the campaign was underreported, the movie argues.
Remember, Hawaii has the second-highest concentration of Mormons of any state in the U.S., next to Utah. More than 60,000 Mormons live in Hawaii, or about 5 percent of the overall population. As someone who lived in Utah for three years, I can’t help but wonder how much the church had to do with Gov. Linda Lingle’s decision on Tuesday to veto a civil unions bill. Honolulu Weekly’s Ryan Senaga wondered something similar in his review of the film a few weeks ago:
Perhaps after the final fate of HB444 is determined, a searing, a powerful documentary like “8″ will be made about the journey of that bill. But will it revolve around the bill’s passage into law, or its veto? If it’s about the veto, will we want the world to learn about the insidious steps behind the scenes of its demise and would we want our streets and the faces of certain kamaaina are forever documented as promoting hate?
The Governor vetoed the law in order that it could be decided by the entire population, of which 5% Mormon is still a small percentage.
If you really try to understand the Mormons as much as they work to understand people who act homosexually, you will find that the Mormons oppose Gay marriage because they deeply believe that its widespread acceptance will have negative affects on the traditional family – the basic unit of society.
Mormons do not hate Gay people, and although some foolish individuals who call themselves Mormons may hate Gay people – the church and people as a whole work to reach out to people who are act homosexually, give support in their needs, even push for laws to protect them against unfair discrimination such as in housing. But the family is the essential foundation of society, and they feel deeply that homosexuality is not a family.
Now it will be decided by the people, not a few legislators and the governor!
I say, Bravo for Democracy! and I pray the people will be wise in their choices. Tolerance is important, but is not the only thing at stake here!
“I haven’t yet seen ‘8: The Mormon Proposition,’ […] a searing, a powerful documentary like ‘8’”
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So, how did you get from the first part quoted to the second part? I’ve noticed with curiosity for a while that the blatancy of Prop 8’s opponents’ prejudice troubles them not at all. Why is that? They act like they’re equal participants in the public square, but their standard for discourse seems to be agreement with their beliefs, not factually-grounded positions.
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You offer a good example by citing this mockumentary. 10% more money was contributed to oppose Prop 8 than to support it ($44 million vs. $40 million). Any Mormon influence that increased donations to support Prop 8 only served to narrow Prop 8’s di$avantage, but did not overcome it. Now we have this film that would have us believe that the side spending *less* money bought the election.
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Another example from this film: The total adult Mormon population in California only equals about half Prop 8’s margin of victory. If all of us had voted and had voted for Prop 8 (polls showed that 1 in 10 Mormons opposed it), our votes still would not have affected the outcome. 70% of black voters and 52% of hispanic voters supported Prop 8. *Their* votes were enough to make the difference. Now we have this film that would have us believe that the group with insufficient votes to affect the election’s results were responsible for Prop 8’s victory while it omits mentioning groups who likely were.
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Another example: The kind of pressure to support Prop 8 this film propounds was not known among us Mormons in reality. E.g., in my local ward (congregation), a man that spoke out against Prop 8 in our scripture class every week was allowed to drone on uncensured and uncensored. Shortly after the election, he was called to be president of our Sunday School (which admittedly could be seen as punishment).
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Another example: Mormon support for Prop 8 is based in, as the bumper stickers said, supporting marriage. The Church supports equal civil rights for homosexuals, including parity of civil unions: they endorsed an anti-homosexual-discrimination measure that the Salt Lake City council recently passed. Apparently, there wasn’t room in this film for that inconvenient truth.
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Another example, regarding the claim of funds from the Mormon Church: Total donations from the Church totalled less than $200k — and almost all of that was non-monetary. In fact, donations from outside of California opposing Prop 8 were double the amount supporting it. This means that Californian donations were more supportive of Prop 8 than were funds from the outsiders who sought to influence us. This is another indicator that Californians supported Prop 8 generally — not just the Mormon minority — in opposition to the noisy minority that sought to buy this election with greater spending.
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I’ve also noticed that Prop 8’s opponents’ agreement-with-us standard of discourse goes beyond prejudice. They keep repeating their assertion of lies in Prop 8’s advertising in cases that easily are proven to be accurate. I’ve wondered how they came to believe that lying about an assertion of lying somehow cancels out, like a double negative, to become true. But then I came to the understanding that this isn’t about truth but about the results Prop 8’s opponents want — in defiance of the truth. Again, you’ve given a good example by citing this film.
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Truth and reality are synonyms. To me, these rejections of truth point to a rejection of the reality that marriage is a heterosexual union. Otherwise, why use untruth so consistently to try to persuade people otherwise?
Ben – couldn’t say it any better myself. How about just an amen to that. It sad that we have come to the point in America where simply disagreeing with certain issues makes one “phobic.” This issue is just not that simple.
Seriously, are you guys getting paid by the church to troll blogs? Just wonderin.
Just an FYI…. I grew up around many Mormons and one of my best and closest friends in high school was a Mormon. They are a wonderful and loving and caring people – especially if you see things “their” way. I do not hate Mormons. I believe that we are all deserving of the same “legal” rights and I wouldn’t withhold those or want to withhold those from someone just because of their religion. Perhaps they should spend a little more time focusing on their own spiritual houses and leave everyone else alone. See Prop 8! It will definitely open the eyes to some of the shadiness that goes on. Tax exempt as a religious institution means BUTT THE HELL OUT OF THE POLITICS!!!! Otherwise – pay taxes. And we could use the tax money right about now :).
Actually, their are 4 other states with higher percentages of Mormons that Hawaii. Idaho, with 27% has 410,000, Wyoming with 10% has 62,411, Nevada with 7.1% has 174,662, and Arizona with 6% has 381,235.
FYI Ben heterosexuals are the ones damaging the “traditional family”- you are conveniently ignoring the divorce rate in America. Denying gay couples the same rights afforded to straight couples IS a form of hate, no matter how much you or anyone else tries to sugarcoat it. If you’re relationship is so shaky you think a gay couple marrying will affect it, there is something wrong with the relationship itself. Also, those who are secure in their sexuality will have no problem with it.
RE: John Wright @ July 7, 2010 at 6:49 am
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Your comment is a good example of what I meant by comment “But then I came to the understanding that this isn’t about truth but about the results Prop 8′s opponents want — in defiance of the truth.” You offer no answer for the facts that I presented other than to attempt to wave them away as “trolling.” Trying dismiss them out of hand still leaves them as unanswered facts.
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You also attempted to wave *me* away by suggesting that I’m paid by the Church. Even if I were — and I am not; the Church is not even aware that I comment — that still would leave the facts I presented unanswered. Lurking behind your suggestion is another denial of reality: that there are sincere people who understand your position, honestly disagree with it, and care enough to act indepently for what we believe is right.
I just want to say to all the mormons and mormon lovers trolling this blog, “f*ck you, and f*ck your secret underwear”.
I am just glad that when this is all said and done, the mormons will lose, the gays will have the right to marry, and the mormons will come out looking like the racists that opposed interracial marriage.
You should really real the story of the “golden glasses” and what the mormon’s actually believe…it is not far off from the scientology bullsh*t.
Having the mormon’s in charge of marriage is like having the fox running the henhouse.
Their idea of marriage is getting as many 14 year old girls as you can find and burying their nasty pieces deep in their virginal bodies, to make more 14 year old girls to violate. That is morminism in a nutshell.
John,
Wait, so are you suggesting that any time people disagree with you they MUST be working for the church? My comment is not so much about gay marriage as much about civility and accuracy in discourse. You automatically assume the movie is accurate without having seen it or really looking deeper into the facts. The dynamics that brought about prop 8 were much more complex than the documentary portrays. Further, Ronald immediately suggests that denying gay couples marriage is hate. However, we as a society have decided to deny SEVERAL groups benefits that you could call rights. Why can’t a consenting minor have sex with a consenting adult? Why do we limit the voting age to 18 and older? Suggesting that these decisions are driven only by hate is not only false, but destructive and further entrenches both sides in their views.
John Locke appealed to this logic when he explained that the great contentions of our time are not as much the fact that we have different opinions, but that we are unwilling to understand and listen to one another. Both sides in prop 8 are guilty of this.
Oh, and John, make sure you check your facts before promulgating your views. And what the devil does the fact you lived in Utah for 3 years have to do with your argument? Were you hear when the Mormon church supported the anti-gay discrimination law? If you were here you would know how unfair the prop 8 movie directors were to use Chris Buttars as a representative of the views of Mormons or Utahns. The guy is a nut job and everyone here knows it. Why then did they use him?
Sam, I think the reason that the filmmakers would use a “nut job” to represent Mormons or “Utahns”, is self-evident. Because the entire world knows that you are ALL “nut jobs”, no matter how you try to lipstick it up or make it sound like “civil discourse”, the Mormons = haters/nut jobs. And we all knew this long before Prop 8…..way back when we first heard of your magic glasses, magic underwear, bizarre “history” of the world, etc.
You’re nut jobs, socially and culturally, it’s deeply programmed in you, and everyone knows it.
But of course, you’re in denial, Latrell.
oh, don’t forget the pedophilia and polygamy that has long been associated with the Mormon Church.
Yeah, foxes/hen houses.
RE: Trolling
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In the hope of improving our discourse, here’s how some comments appear to me
1. A movie is realeased that inaccurately and unfavorably portrays us and our participation in a recent public election.
2. This column endorses this movie.
3. We offer facts revealing those inaccuracies hoping to clear misunderstanding among the writer and readers here 4. We are labelled trolls for defending ourselves from untruths against us
@Manaen: I don’t believe it’s conducive to meaningful discourse when one group is seeking to oppress — or is in fact oppressing — another group.
pedophilia and polygamy. magic underwear. obsessed with gay people.
What else is there to say about mormons???
@John Wright: Wait, so you’re telling me that Democracy is the process of one group “seeking to oppress – or is in fact oppressing – another group?” If it’s not ok to have differing opinions than someone else politically, why do we even vote at all? Why don’t we just crown someone king and let them make all the decisions they think is right?
Come on, it’s ok to have a disagreeing opinion to what the majority of the state of California voted for, but to call that an act of deliberate hostility by a church against a differing group is just ignorant.
As someone who just moved from Hawai’i, I’m glad that they people will actually get to vote on it. Isn’t that what politics of this country is supposed to be about?
@Tom: Dude, you sound like a Nazi propagandist. Find a beach somewhere and relax.
@Jonathan: Not when it comes to civil rights. How about we vote on whether Mormons can marry?
@John: didn’t that happen once already when the government ordered that Mormons couldn’t practice plural marriage anymore? I think your idea is 100 years too late.
@Jonathan: Good point. Is that why the church is so adamantly opposed to gay marriage? The fact is Mormons are still allowed to marry one consenting adult if their choosing. This is about equality, not polygamy.
I live on the beach “dude”.
Polygamy and pedophilia. yeah, sounds like propaganda, but it’s all true! Believe it, or not.
The foxes want to guard the hen house.
@ Tom:
You clearly have no solid argument other than discredit yourself with every word that trickles out of your mouth. There is no way, anyone, ever, can or would take you serious. My suggestion, take a xanax and go lie down in the dark, away from society, because obviously you come across as a crazy person. My guess is you didn’t get picked for kick ball or something when you were younger. If you want to be taken serious, don’t spew nonsense that you can’t even think through.
“My guess is you didn’t get picked for kick ball or something when you were younger.”
And I’m the one “spewing nonsense?”
Um, Eric, you know nothing about me, but what I’m “spewing” is common knowledge about Mormons…something they try to distance themselves from, and avoid by trying to focus on teh gays, but it’s factual, documented truth about Mormons.
and furthermore
I didn’t come to this gay news site to talk to a f*cking mormon or a f*cking mormon-lover.
I don’t want their opinions, there is nothing they can say to me to make me un-learn what they are all about.
https://www.thedarksideofsaltlakecity.org/index.htm
I work with a lot of Mormons and they believe it’s their right and duty to “run the show” and impose their views on everyone else. If they don’t like carrots, no one can have carrots. If they don’t like show tunes, no one can listen to show tunes. That’s how they do things. They don’t allow non-Mormons to bring coffee onto their property. I attended a conference at BYU and someone who didn’t realize that brought coffee to a morning meeting. They were treated like a criminal and were ordered to leave. Over COFFEE. Mormons don’t drink it, so no one can! In Mormon temples the members make a vow to God that they use all their time, talents, and opportunities to build up his kingdom. Then out they go into the world, determined to make everyone behave just like them. They speak of valuing individual free agency but they just can’t seem to grasp the concept.