Late televangelist also had son who committed suicide after coming out, but Dallas man takes different path
DAVID TAFFET | Staff Writer taffet@dallasvoice.com
Randy Roberts Potts grew up like many in this area. Raised in an evangelical family, he married at 20 and had three children.
But at 30, he came out as gay and moved to Dallas.
Today, few in his family speak to him. But last year he summoned the courage to take his children to visit his grandfather — Tulsa evangelist Oral Roberts.
Roberts, who died last year, had four children: Potts’ mother, a Tulsa attorney; her sister, who died in a plane crash with her husband in 1977; Ronnie Roberts, who committed suicide in 1982; and Richard Roberts, who became president of Oral Roberts University in 1993 but resigned in 2007 after being accused of using school funds for personal and political purposes.
Potts identifies most closely with his deceased uncle, Ronnie. They look alike. They were both teachers. They married, had children and divorced at about the same age.
“We married very similar women, too,” Potts said.
They were also about the same age when they came out. But there is a major difference between the two.
Ronnie came out as gay to the Rev. Troy Perry, founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, in the early 1980s. Six months later, Ronnie Roberts committed suicide.
Potts, on the other hand, learned to embrace his identity.
Potts said he believes people need to take responsibility for their own lives. If their families aren’t supportive, they need to surround themselves with people who are. That is what made the difference for him.
But the times were different as well, for Potts and his uncle.
“By the time I was in my late 20s, we had ‘Will & Grace,’” Potts said. “In 1982 in Tulsa, there were no role models.”
Although it was pretty common knowledge in the LGBT community that Oral Roberts had a gay son, in the family and at church it was a big secret. Potts said he didn’t know himself until fairly recently.
“In the gay community people knew that,” he said. “In my family it was utter heresy that I mentioned it.”
He said the “the act of saying it publicly” has estranged most of his family from him.
Since he came out, Potts said only two people in his family even talk to him — his brother and a distant cousin.
Potts met his wife at age 18. They married two years later and had three children.
Ten years after they married, he and his wife divorced. When she got a new job in Dallas, he moved here to be near his children. They have joint custody.
His estrangement from his family began much earlier.
He compared his mother to Sarah Palin.
“She reminds me a lot of my mother,” he said of Palin. “I hear my mother in her, the same sort of mindset.”
Potts said his relationship with his mother reflected her relationship with her father.
Last year, he decided to take his children to meet their great-grandfather, a man he described as very cold.
“I was terrified of him as a kid,” Potts said.
He recalled that as he was growing up, his grandfather never remembered his name or the names of any of Potts’ cousins.
But he was surprised during this last visit.
“He wanted to be the grandfatherly type in that visit,” Potts said. “It was nice that he was play-acting for my kids.”
When he arrived, he was surprised that Roberts had learned the names of each his great-grandchildren, and he gave each of the children a $20 bill and an autographed copy of one of his books.
“That’s his legacy, his life’s work,” Potts said, saying he thinks his grandfather believed the book would mean something to his great-grandchildren when they were older.
Despite Roberts’ attitude toward his great-grandchildren, Potts said he knows it must have been difficult for the evangelist to see Potts himself. “I know I must have reminded him of Ronnie,” he said. “I was the same age as Ronnie when he died. I know that ran through his head several times when he looked at me.
“He was very isolated and alone,” he said. “He was always too busy for friends. So here he is 91. He lost his wife in 2005.”
Potts’ grandmother was his closest relative. He described her as kind and loving. She died the year he came out.
For her funeral, he was not allowed in the family tent. Instead, he stood outside to hold one of the tent poles.
When his grandfather died last December at the age of 91, Potts decided to attend the funeral. but he was not invited to sit with the family.
But Potts lives a happy life in Dallas. He works several jobs to make ends meet. He’s doing some writing on several subjects. He said he’s heard little from his family about a recent an article published by This Land, an Oklahoma periodical, about his family.
He has an agent and hopes to publish a book out about the same subject.
This article appeared in the Dallas Voice print edition July 9, 2010.
Randy, you are very courageous. It took courage to face up to who and what you are and it took even more courage to come out to your biological family. It is a shame they are unable to love you just as you are, but you are not alone. WE–our community–WE are your family, and we all love you. Thank you for setting such a positive example.
Randy, your strength and character shine brilliantly-not everyone would overcome such circumstances to rise above. Not to just live, but live happily! I am so sorry for the loss of your grandmother at such a pivotal time, as well as that of your uncle; that he couldn’t deal with his pain. You are so right-whether it is coming out, or coming from an abusive background…..CHOSEN family are the ones that will always be there…..best of luck to you, and we’ll all look for your books on the shelf!!!
The first comment is exactly what I was thinking while reading this article. WE- you, me, James Simmons, David Taffet. our community- WE are a family.
Great provocative article.
Randy, I am very happy for you. Your life will be blessed as you live your life in authenticity and truth. May you have the abundant life that your grandfather spoke of. As a gay christian man who attended ORU, I can relate to much of your story. Thank you for sharing. It is so very sad the lost relationships with family and friends, that is part of this experience for those raised in such conservative environments. My prayer each day is that hearts will be opened and that healing of those broken relationships will come one day.
Randy’s mom and my mom have been friends from the early ’80s when Randy’s mom was the Dean of Students at ORU, and my mom was an admissions counselor at ORU. Roberta and Mom bonded over the fact that they’d both married into the Potts’ family in Oklahoma. Not sure of the relation, but Roberta and Mom consider themselves cousins related by marriage (to their husbands…) I skipped high school and attended ORU at 13 years-old, thanks to Roberta’s ackowledgment of my capabilities. I knew, growing up, of the history of the Roberts’ family, as my family lived just up the road from Oral’s brother, Elmer. I became an attorney in 2000 in Tulsa. In 2005, I came out to my mother. Her first response was to call Roberta, who promptly called me to tell me I was going to hell (I didn’t realize Randy had just come out as well.)
J. R., I can’t count the number of times I have been told I am going to hell. I always respond with “Fine. If you get there before I do, please let everyone know I’m coming.”
What about Oral Roberts other son Vaden Roberts of Tulsa,OK????? Why was he Left Out ??? He’s never mentioned I showed chickens with him in the late 70’s and went to his hugh home & hugh building and elaborate pens for his show birds Which I believe was purchased w/church money. Vaden liked wearing overalls at the time was seeing a married woman. And was a funny cut up with filthy jokes. He said and everyone In the Okla East Poultry Club knew he was Richard Roberts brother .He attended our meetings at resturants the woman was club secretary at one time. I purchased birds from him and my parents went to his home But I didn’t read in in Oral’s orbit I even called the Tulsa World newspaper one of whom said she too knows of some that have been left out. Vaden was a wonderful man.
The Happy Goodman Family also had a gay son. Whom they put away in a mental hospital out of sight n quiet guess $ talks n kept him hidden/locked up n zipped lipped. He too commited suicide He was a former Miss Gay Tulsa in the 70’s and performed Drag as Lisa Goodman singing live. He looked just like Vestal his mother when he was in drag and made lots of tips performing “Looking For A City”. He was also named “The Gospel Queen of Oklahoma” ! I have videos of his male interview n his performance. He said “Entertainment is in the blood” when asked why he was an entertainer. He sang w/The Happy Goodman’s when he was a small child.
Randy is an excellent writer. I’ve read a lot of his work on his blogs. Who knew he was also so handsome. Good luck with the publishing Randy. Keep up the good work.
Vaden Roberts was a brother of Oral that Randy said he never really knew. He was left out because this was the story of Oral’s grandson coming out, not the story of show chickens.
So sorry to read what happened at your Grandmother’s funeral. At times like that everyone should put their feelings against others to the side and love and cherish those that are gone. I wish for you that your family can become more loving and that forgiveness will rise of you for them mostly, but they will have to get over their messed up idea of you keeping your sexuality to yourself and forgive themselves as well as let go of their unending despising of you for coming out and “shaming” them.
They learn to should practice what your grandfather preached, in the pure form and not as moralization of others and consternation, but as love. Only God can judge, its not up to them. They of all people should know that and still show their love for you.
You’re hot….Congratulations on changing teams.
As a proud graduate of Oral Roberts University I had admiration for Roberta Potts. Very disappointed to hear that she has the capability to treat her son in such a manner. Reminiscent of how she was also treated by her family. I hope Randy Roberts Potts will enjoy a good life as an empathetic good man who takes care of his children who understands that his grandfather was a man with many good and revolutionary ideas but a man with a very limited perspective and a poor track record of bonding with his family. Potts should cherish his heritage and move forward with dignity and pride in who is becoming knowing that he too could have a few revolutionary ideas of his own.
Randy,
I just read this article after searching for you online. I just heard an interview you gave that ran on KERA’s NPR radio show “The Story”. I hope i listed that correctly. Anyway, I wanted to tell you that your story hit many of the same low points in my life and that I could identify with your perspective. I would love to hear more about what you are doing these days and also get more of your story. I am a preachers son and also gay. My story is of course different but it sounds like we share in similar pain. I would really like to know what your thoughts are of God and our place in His plan. I dont know if you will see this note but I would really like to have the opportunity to carry on this conversation further. Thanks for sharing your story.
Randy,
It breaks my heart to see people claiming to be Christians being so hateful and mean spirited toward other humans. When this hatred comes from one’s blood relatives it comes with double devastation. I thank God so much for preparing me to to face my son with love and dignity when he was discharged fro the military for alleged gay activity
It is my constant desire live a live that portrays a Christ like spirit and attitude toward other people. As a Christian never do I feel it is my duty to assume his authority and take over his role of judging others. I know he is still active. Also I know He did not retire and leave me in charge.
Howell B. Joiner
Randy,
You and I have never met, and you don’t know me. I remember meeting some of your family when I attended ORU from 1987-1991. Being there changed my life in a good way, and I treasure that time.
I’m also so glad I came across your story today. My heart aches for you and the things you have suffered because of who you are – both your family and your sexuality. I’m posting this because I so want to reach out and extend some kindness to you, with no other motive than to just be kind. This judgmental attitude (not only of homosexuality, but many other things as well) of the Christian church makes me scream inside, I have silently hated it for too long, never knowing what to say, scared to say it to the “wrong person”. I admire your courage, your wisdom, your eloquence with language. Stay strong, Randy. You have an amazing journey ahead of you.
“She died the year he came out.”
Go figure
I have read some of your writing and i have to say you bring healing to my soul Randy. I cannot go into detail without writing a book, but please email me when you are close to Northern VA. I would count it such a blessing to hear you speak and an honor to meet you in person…. (and yes you are very good looking but your soul is what touches me so). I bless My Lord and God everyday for creating me Gay and placing me in the company of some of the most profound thinkers and visionaries of His children.
It’s amazing how info comes out after one dies. It blows my mind. I wanted to say something about true love Love is interested in you without price. Love sees the best in you when others can’t. Then you are compelled to tell others on how love found you, treated you and walks with you in life and would they want love in their life too.
I do not approve of the practice of homosexuality, but I understand it. I also am not perfect with my own behavior vs. my morals, so I cannot judge. We all slip and fall so many times a day. But I lament the attitude of your extended family, both at the funeral and in general. I am so very, very sorry. Out of Christian concern for your path, they should be endeavoring to draw even closer to you, not move farther away. All the very best to you…This hurts. Why people would so willingly damage one another, I know not.
I do not approve of the practice of heterosexuality, but I understand it. With the planet becoming overpopulated, it seems that the Christian thing to do would be to stop the relentless reproduction and give the planet a few decades to repair itself. But Christians, for the most part, have always been a rather selfish bunch, and they are particularly adept at disguising their selfishness and self-righteousness in a term they refer to as “Christian love”. If you examine it qualitatively, you discover that it is really hatred and judgmentalism.
Hi, James,
I get your comment, and please know that I’m not searching for your approval. Just your humility and respect, as I have shown to you. I would challenge you to compare our two statements, sentence by sentence, and to search for indications of judgmentalism to see who seems to feel more compassionate toward the other.
According to this U.S. Census chart, our country’s growth is slowing down: https://www.npg.org/facts/us_historical_pops.htm In Europe, whose trends we often follow, several countries (esp. France and Italy) are experiencing national concerns due to a lack of population replacement, and their governments are actually offering their citizens payments in return for bearing children to the nation. We will likely be in that place within a couple of decades. Italy, in particular, has deep concern over this issue because its population is aging to the point where there are no longer enough young, working people to support the needs of the aging population. https://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/ReplMigED/Italy.pdf I really don’t think that we need worry about the U.S. becoming overpopulated because of Christian reproduction. Much of the overpopulation stems from people in other continents/nations (belonging to non-Christian religions) bearing many children. It seems perhaps a bit short-sighted to blame the world’s overpopulation upon Christians.
But I understand- you resent my position, and so attacking me as contributing to a global overpopulation problem is part of the effort to dismiss me. Please know that my position on the practice of the gay lifestyle was very little of my original comment, which was offered in humility and concern for Randy about the cruel rejection of his family. I also don’t approve that one of my loved ones lives with his girlfriend, but that doesn’t stop me from adoring them both and being close to them, and they to me. If you knew me, you would sense my acceptance of you as a person and my joy in knowing you, and my ability and even desire to agree to disagree. I’m sure you’re a good person and that there is much to commend you as a fellow human being.
Wow, no response from James to Antonia. Go figure.
James says Christians are judgmental. Yet, putting aside the point of this story, it is rife with judgmental statements. “He was play-acting for my kids.” (You can read his thoughts?) … “He was surprised that Roberts had learned the names of each of his great-grandchildren.” (Who says he had to learn them? Maybe he’s more in touch with your life than you think.) … “He thinks his grandfather believed the book would mean something when they were older.” … “I know that ran through his head several times.” … “He was very isolated and alone.” (You could tell that from one visit?) … “He was always too busy for friends.” Potts seems like a nice guy but, wow, he sure made a lot of quick judgments about a man he admits he hasn’t seen in years.
I’ve found that the people who claim others are judgmental are usually the ones swift to excessive judgment and criticism. Just as those who accuse others of hatred and intolerance are least likely to love others and be tolerant of other views themselves.
The only Vaden Roberts I can find online is Oral’s brother. No son with that name. If he existed, it would seem likely you could find it somewhere online these days. But who knows.
@Rob: I did not think I needed to reply to Antonia. She is right. I try not to state the obvious unless it is really necessary, which in this case I guess it is. (The classic expression is termed “beating a dead horse.”)
That notwithstanding, Antonia’s arguments are nation/area-specific, whereas my arguments are global (i. e. world population versus a single nation, here and there), but she is, nonetheless, correct despite the fact that her arguments and mine are almost completely unrelated.
Randy – You keep being your authentic self. Honesty is always best. There are many gay-affirming passages in scripture that the church do not preach. We as Christians are called to love God and others. Too many times Christians are only accepting of others if they are exactly like them. Randy, God love’s you and accepts you and His Word says righteousness is to all that believe. The only requirement for Heaven is faith. I pray that your mom’s eyes will be opened and that the church can get a revelation that God is not against gay people. Wishing you all God’s best. Rusty Lane
Ditto to my fellow graduate Renee. I came to know and appreciate Ron & Roberta Potts while Ron was being treated at the City of Faith medical center in the early 80s. They were always such genuine and compassionate people and deep in my heart I believe they still are. Randy, I will be praying for them and you as you make this journey through life. Out of fear for similar treatment from my family I have remained closeted to them and have great respect for your genuineness with them. All the best, brother.
Rob-
You are making quick judgements about statements Randy made about his grandfather without knowing ANYTHING about their history together or about how Oral lived in the last years of his life. There are reasons why Randy made each one of those very tactful statements, but out of respect for my friendship with him, I cannot reveal them. I assure you he was being very generous.
I have such a different view of his mother than some of you on here who remember her so fondly. I know Randy would not want me to say anything, after all she is still his mother. I just never saw anything loving and Christian in her. A lot of rhetoric, a rather cold demeanor, and a skin-tight, strapless, hot pink dress at her son’s wedding, but never love for her child. It’s very sad.
Randy is a very strong person and the best father I have ever seen.
simply put, You don’t have to agree with one’s lifestyle in order to love them. Shame on this extended family who chose public image over the wisdom and love that fosters communication and healing. Love, Wisdom and Faith can go hand in hand.
Antonia: your thoughts are brilliant. Do you have a site or publication?
I feel nothing but admiration for a brave, courageous young man like Randy Roberts Potts. There is SO MUCH hypocrisy in the Christian church today, Randy is a REAL breath of fresh air, with his honesty and his genuineness, among other things. In my opinion, it’s the judgmental and unloving ones that will ultimately end up in hell, as they know NOTHING about love whereas, the Bible VERY PLAINLY states that “God is love”. I feel that the love of God is alive and well in people like Randy Roberts Potts and others like him, REGARDLESS of what one may think of his sexual orientation!
Hi, John, Actually, judging whether or not someone else is living according to God’s instructions is NOT forbidden, but is permitted only in certain circumstances. Read the context of the verse everyone quotes about “judging” (Matt. 7:24). We see that we’re not to judge others UNTIL WE FIRST JUDGE OURSELVES, so that we won’t be hypocrites in judging others. Also, Jesus is talking here about not judging someone according to their ragged clothes. He encourages us here to look beyond the outward appearance. This is the context of His teaching on not judging. If someone comes to church (or synagogue) wearing ragged, worn-out, filthy clothes, we are NOT to judge them, but rather to love and accept them despite their clothes.
For more scriptural instruction on “judging others,” which indeed we ARE called to do (only AFTER we have judged ourselves with sober-mindedness!), see https://www.bibleteacher.org/Judging.htm
Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Go, and sin no more.” Jesus did speak to the woman regarding her sin, but He was loving and gentle in the way in which He did so. But He didn’t refrain from speaking to her about her sin. If we are to “be imitators of God,” as scripture urges us to do, we are to follow Jesus’ model of lovingly addressing sin as well as many other ways of expressing love (healing, blessing, encouraging, teaching, praying for others).
If scripture instructed us to “judge not, period,” then we would be forced to accept the sins of murder, domestic abuse, even the sexual abuse of children by priests! (Which we all know is wrong.)
Judging sin is something we MUST do, unfortunately- but FIRST in ourselves, before saying ANYTHING about others! This is the scriptural position in its totality.
The Old Testament prophets certainly judged…Better to be judged in this life and change, than to be judged in the next life and not to have the opportunity to do anything about it. This is the scriptural position. It is true that “God is love,” but part of the many ways God’s love expresses itself to us is to teach us His ways, just as we teach our children right and wrong. If I always allowed my children to do whatever they wanted, without repercussions or correction, would this be a wise type of love? No, because ultimately we desire our children’s longterm good. It is the same with Father God. The question is, whose idea of “right and wrong” is correct? This is the actual question. Not whether or not we can tell someone their actions are wrong. I’ll bet if either you or I met up with a pedophile priest, we would certainly tell them what they were doing was wrong. Or, do you feel that you cannot judge ANYONE, even this priest, because God is love, and this means that anything anyone chooses to do with their lives is right or acceptable?
The difficult question that is before our society is, whose ideas of right and wrong are going to be the ones we ultimately choose to adopt for the longterm? It appears as though, with respect to gay marriage and the gay lifestyle, the teachings of scripture will be ultimately rejected. But please don’t say that “God is love” and we can’t make judgments. Certainly, your own post here, just above my own, is quite judging of those whom you feel are “unloving,” and you predestine them to hell. So this is very interesting, in one who says that “God is love” and therefore, we can’t judge. I wish, my friend, that you could see the inconsistency in your way of thinking here. Having said all of this, I, also, feel very deeply for Randy Roberts Potts, and for the tragedy of family brokenness that has befallen him and his family as a result of their inability to express love to him. They are clearly in the wrong here and THEY need for their harshness and cruelty to be lovingly addressed. “Speaking the truth in love” is the way to go. To practically disown a family member who is gay is beyond the pale. Life is not about “appearances” and reputation. This is also a major sin, to live this way and with these priorities!
Antonia, THANK YOU for drawing my attention to the inconsistency in my own thinking! I MUST be more careful in the future!
John, your humility is refreshing, and please know that all of us have inconsistencies! You just haven’t uncovered my multitudinous inconsistencies yet. 🙂 But talk with me long enough, and all of them shall arise to the light of day, announcing themselves in full measure with trumpets blaring the message: “ANTONIA IS INCONSISTENT!!!!”
Peace to you and between us, my friend…
Antonia, thank you for that! Sometimes we forget that only ONE perfect life was ever lived! Here’s a hint: His initials were J.C., and He lived over 2,000 years ago. Need I say more? Peace!!
John, amen, so right, so right…Thanks for this encouraging reminder!
Have a good evening!
if only i had a friend like randy to talk to–if only i had a friend at all
Justin, I would LOVE to be able to be a friend to you! Unfortunately, I can’t post my email address here, just know that there IS someone out there who is thinking of you! You will be in my thoughts! Bless you!
thanx john–im bait14 on yahoo messenger
Justin, I downloaded Yahoo Messenger but can’t quite get it to work. Just letting you know!
randy,
congratulations on overcomming the mind boggling obstacles you have had to overcome. i am from tulsa,ok and i know how judgemental and cold hearted the roberts organization can be. thank you for comming out and being honest with yourself and the public. you are someone that other gays, adult and youth, can look up to. maybe your example will stop someone from suicide that the “loving jesus filled” church has rejected and thrown in the gutter.
After seeing you on CNN last night…all I can say is SHAME SHAME SHAME on your mother and other family members for not practicing what they preach. And what Jesus taught was love..unconditional love. You dont need those types of people in your life. GOOD LUCK in wherever your life leads. You are So brave!!
How sad, but how typical of these “Christian” families, to not speak to their own family member.
Wow, the only thing that keeps people out of heaven is UNBELIEF in Jesus Christ and what he did. No behavior of any kind keeps people out. What must I do to be saved? The Bible says: Believe on the One He has sent.” What is the work that God requires? This is the work: That you believe on the One he has sent. People get it all wrong when they don’t understand grace, and they pick people’s sins of the flesh apart, thinking they are better for n ot doing a “certain ” sin, but that is all that the unredeemed man can do is be in the “flesh” of sin which is all the bad things that the bible says it is. When you believe on Jesus as your way into heaven, he no longer looks at the deeds of the flesh, as far as keeping you out of heavn, he looks at faith in Christ. FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, BUT A GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. Salvation is a free gift from God when you have faith in Jesus Christ as your only way to righteousness. God will work on behaviors later just as any parent works on his children’s behaviors that might not be good, but he doesn’t disown him because of it. Hope this enlightens some people to God’s love and way of righteousness.
Anna: good argument. However, it is predicated upon the fact that there is, in fact, a god. Whether or not that is the case is not known, by anyone, and may never be known.
You know.. I so appreciate Randy’s courage and struggle. I also had to come through that battle, coming from ministry on both sides of family, but God is a good and loving God, unlike many of His followers.
I am curious, is anyone out there that has learned how to reconcile their faith and sexuality, while not losing the principles of the Word of Faith belief? It seems that most of those who have learned to accept homosexuality feel that they have to leave the Word of Faith principles behind to do so. We started a church in the LA area five years ago that is Word of Faith, as well as open and affirming called World Harvest Faith Center.
If you know of any other Open and Affirming Word of Faith churches out there, please email me at paztor@sbcglobal.net Also, we have a website that helps people reconcile and understand what the bible truly says about homosexuality at http://www.gayfaithonline.com If you are looking for a gay church or want to start a bible study, or just need prayer support, we are here for you!
Love in Jesus.
GOD HAD SAID”””””MANY OF U WHO THINK ARE GOING TO HEAVEN –AREN’T????++++++AND MANY OF U WHO THINK U ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN —ARE !!!!!!!!!—GOD AND ONLY GOD AND HIS GOV’T KNOW WHO WILL BE IN HEAVEN AND WHY THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE WHAT THEY ARE????THE GAY PEOPLE ???NOT TOO MUCH OF THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE FOR US AND THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAVE BECOME THAT WAY—-AND GUESS WHAT ORAL–U ARE GOING TO BE CHARGED FOR YOUR SON AND GRANDSON FOR THEIR GAYNESS—IT IS YOUR GREED AND SELFISHNESS AND THE UNREAL WAY U HAVE BEHAVED [[[ PHONY ]]]IN BEING A DISCIPLE OF THE HOLY GOD…..U HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIS RULES…YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING OVER YOUR FAMILY’S SOULS INSTEAD OF HAVING EYE CANDY {{{ TOO MUCH EXPENSIVE MATERIAL ITEMS—SHAME ON YOU]]]] YOU GOT SIDETRACKED AND NOW YOU ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE U SEE WHERE U GOOFED—-GOD BLESS YA ORAL AND NEXT TIME YOU WILL KNOW BETTER….YOUR FAMILY IGNORING ONE OF YOUR OWN—-OH I JUST THINK THAT GOD IS SOOOOO PLEASED AT YOUR FRUITS….BOY ORAL U WERE A FOOL………BUT WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE—FOR THE LORD GOD SAID ””’WE ARE ALL SINNERS AND HAVE COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD…..AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE DOWN HERE…BLESS US FATHER FOR WE HAVE SINNED…AND HAVE MERCY ON ALL OUR SOULS AMEN.
It is very shameful to see people supporting something that God forbids.It is not Christians who are judgemental but it is the word of God which outrightly speaks against homosexuality.This instance was an attack from the devil on the great man of God and evangelist Oral Roberts
Craig: prove to me that God forbids anything. And before you start quoting scripture, let me remind you that the bible is a history book. It was written by humans, giving their version of what may have transpired back in the day. So unless you can introduce me to “God” and I hear what you assert face to face, then it is crystal clear that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Rather, you are simply repeating what you have heard someone else say. There’s a term for that. It’s called “hearsay” (which originates from the word “heresy”).
James:Maybe to start with,let me ask you if you are a Christian ?Because the bible is the basis of any arguement i can make.It is beyond just a historical book but it is inspired of God and is God’s word.It crosses the boundaries of phylosophy and literature because it has the power to transform your life and can help you know God on a personal note.The reason why it hasnt had an effect on your life is because of the perception you have chosen to look at it with.I challange you to read it with a different light and pray to God to reveal to you the truth hidden in it and see if it doesnt change u.About homosexuality James ,i assure you that it is not natural because if it were ,God would have created man alone ,however he created women to be man’s mate.
Craig, what is “natural” is not really for you to decide, nor is it defined in the history book to which you refer. As far as knowing God on a “personal note” (your words), there is no way to have a personal relationship if you cannot interact with that individual on a personal level. As far as homosexuality being unnatural, it may be unnatural to you because it is not your own genetic predisposition, but to others with whom it IS their genetic predisposition, it is perfectly natural. As far as your argument goes about God creating man alone, it is predicated solely on the notion that (a) there is a god and (b) that god is responsible for the creation of the human race. There is no concrete evidence to support either. If you choose to believe that (a) and (b) are true, then that is your prerogative. However, just because you say something is true does not, in fact, mean that it is. It simply means that you have your opinion, to which we are all entitled.
James, there’s a superb book out there, “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist,” which makes a fantastic and cogent case for God, using the principles of logic (inductive, deductive, etc.). I encourage you to find this if you wish to know what would be the evidence to support that God exists, and that He created the human race. If you believe that every item on the earth is impacted by the Law of Gravity, you will have evidence enough to believe that God exists after you read this extraordinary work. (The Law of Gravity cannot be proven to impact every item on the earth because every item on the earth cannot be observed at once. But we BELIEVE that it does impact every item on the earth, by the use of inductive and deductive reasoning. The same may be used for evidence that God exists.) I also would submit, although with trepidation because I fear this may not be well received, that simply because something is genetic doesn’t render it ideal nor even desirable. There is a genetic tendency towards alcoholism. But this doesn’t mean the individual carrying these genetics is forced to ACT as an alcoholic, or should. There are genes for breast cancer; there is a genetic tendency towards heart disease and diabetes…Pedophilia is also now believed to have a genetic component. Researchers have discovered that certain women may be genetically predisposed to cheat on their partners. I’m not saying that the genetic tendency (which seems to be established but I haven’t personally read the studies to evaluate them) towards homosexuality is a “negative” just because these other genetic predispositions are negative ones…I’m just saying that simply because something is a genetic tendency does not render it a good, positive, and wholesome thing…In the same vein that something being “natural” doesn’t necessarily render it wholesome. Schizophrenic people may have a genetically-based, “natural” tendency to split their personalities, but even if “this is the way they were made,” this doesn’t mean that this condition is desirable nor ideal. It feels “natural” for the pedophile to do what s/he does, and the genetic tendencies involved make it seem so normal for that person…But it’s not ideal nor desirable.
However, having said all of this, I also do NOT believe that a family should in any way reject, smear, scorn, nor disown a person who is gay! They are flesh and blood! Family members belong together! No matter what religion or persuasion they are! So I would not have made that choice towards my son nor my grandson (or daughter or granddaughter). In fact, at times I wonder if my 11yo. son is gay – and if he ever comes out to us, I will love on him and embrace him and tell him he is forever in my heart and life – although he will be aware, without my saying it, from prior conversations in the family that this type of activity is something we consider to be wrong. (But we have all done wrong so I’m no less of a sinner. He could disown ME!) Getting back to God, there are many unseen things in whose existence we believe, but cannot prove: justice, love, spiritual peace, etc. We may observe their effects, but cannot outright prove they exist. By the way, you are very well-spoken and -educated. Your correct use of grammar makes it a pleasure to read your writings.
Antonia, clearly you are also well spoken and well educated. The one thing I think you may be overlooking is that while sexual orientation is not a matter of choice, neither does the “activity” (your word) typically cause or create any harm between two consenting adults. If you truly love your son as much as you say you do, let him be to grow, explore, develop and make his own informed decisions. You may certainly guide him during his formative years (like right now), but to tell him that something is “wrong” simply because you either do not understand or disagree with how he feels is…well, “wrong”. While you would never do anything to disown him, you would not conversely want to do/say anything to cause him to disown you either. You can certainly try to teach him respect for others, but it is also important to allow him the freedom to be who he is without any duress or undue or misguided parental influences.
The author of “i dont have enough faith to be an atheist” Is frank turek. Instead of reading that book go watch him debate christopher hitchens, a much better use of your time.
the bible was written by men ”yes” but chosen men by GOD….who were filled with the HOLY SPIRIT…..so as no lying spirit can interfere…..and it was solely inspired by GOD….so as to last forever on earth…and is our blueprint to follow to get to heaven and not get caught up in the circle of earth life over and over and over again …that is why JESUS CHRIST DIED for our sins…meaning????GOD created the devil and along our way [[[life on earth]]]] for reasons that we are to learn the way of CHRIST—— JESUS SAID++++++++””” I AM THE WAY–THE TRUTH–THE LIGHT— NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER ””BUT”” BY ME..remember what JESUS said to the man on the cross [[[ thief ]]] — today you shall be with ME in paradise….NOT!!! heaven—–BUT PARADISE……. the thief was not ready to be with the FATHER IN HEAVEN?????? YET…..AND so it is with us all…..JESUS ALSO SAID..some when they die will rest and others will prepare for the final day…and others ????? still studying the bible….it is so interesting and alive — i always ask the HOLY SPIRIT to guide me and that way i won’t fine the scriptures to be dead like the lying spirits want us to think they are.
Linn: prove to me that what you are saying is true. Just because someone writes something doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Give me some facts, otherwise everything you said is meaningless gibberish. (And I stress “meaningless”.)
HI James–I really appreciate your skepticism …i do not trust everything as well just because someone wrote or said it…even if it is backed up or approved by the highest known authority here on earth…i will still search and verify—WHAT IS TRUTH…..James–we are not only fleshly beings we are also spiritual beings…you know this since we have a brain that allows us to think and assimilate the goings on around us and we have a conscience that intuitively allows us to feel and know the goings on around us and even better can warn us of danger and bewares or false activity’s and our conscience is our guide..because we are connected to GOD……HE created us..HE PROMISED US THAT HE WOULD NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE US..that is why we are creative beings—..when i read the bible it comes alive—meaning???–before i start i ask the HOLY SPIRIT to guide me…that is what GOD wants us to do..so no other lying spirit can fool me…and when i read the bible i hear just one voice–not literally– but i silently hear one voice and not just mens’ written ideas….the scriptures that i did not understand…..now i do and they MAKE SENSE TO ME…i came across a passage in the bible that said ”””if i GOD” is teaching you …then whom is better….no one –HOLY SPIRIT,,,i am not perfect and far from it but i believe in GOD…you begin to see with spiritual eyes—meaning??? you see beyond the material and realize the full meaning of earthly matters and what GOD has been telling in the bible to be true…..there is so much to learn and understand—the church’s don’t teach all that they should…and another fact—-the miracles that do happen and even science cannot explain??? science deals in material matters and not in spiritual happenings…but they are beginning to branch out?? GOD says in the bible ””there is nothing NEW under the sun…HE KNOWS ALL ..i laugh when i hear people telling us ”how GOD thinks”” we are such small beings in a great space….just looking at the birth of a baby and all that’s involved is miraculous.. we do no evolve…..HE knows the number of hairs on our heads..and who we really are inside…..its tough the road to heaven and we …need JESUS CHRIST — he is our salvation +++ u think we can do this on our own steam — hahahahah— no way.
Nice rhetoric, Linn…empty though it is. Again, I’m asking where the proof is. Your mindless gibberish is impressive (although you could use a few grammar lessons), but it still doesn’t answer the question.
HI JAMES—-you have answered just intuitively as i imagined—what you want is the short way to the divine power of GOD…..you know –”’-WHERE;S THE PROOF”’— that will be between you and the LORD— i once asked for the knowledge that Eliahj had—-within 2 weeks — i gave it back–i was shown and realized that i was not mind and soul ready—-”MEANING”– i had to go thru more living and experience of life –before — i was even ready to take the steps of Eliahj—and that my dear man cannot be explained or proven—you have to live it???it is a hard explanation to say on how you or a person who truly believes in GOD and CHRIST—has to prepare for the extra-extraordinaire that wants to be bestowed on himself—–KNOWLEDGE—IS POWER—-BUT FOR THE WILL OF GOD….it is to be used for the will of GOD… and not for ourselves..and that my dear brother is hard—you have to be ready and solid as a rock—right thru the neurons straight thru to the tissues….[[get it]]….whomever GOD chooses .. and is ready–i admire him or her tremendously….the battles fought and won — and that is just to get to first base….are tricky and you must be grounded in CHRIST. – are you with me JAMES.??? AND THANKYOU for the hidden compliment—mindless gibberish–very good– it is really ”’spiritual food”’. from the soul.
Please pardon the mindless gibberish comment. What I meant to infer is that your grammar, punctuation and syntax are terrible. In addition to making your narratives difficult to read, it leaves me with the impression that I am trying to reason with someone who is…well, uneducated. Since that isn’t really possible, I think the conversation has effectively come to its termination point.
-I don’t recall Oral being all that outspoken on the subject. In fact the only time I can recall him mentioning it when I was a student there was in chapel when he noted that people like to call it “an alternate lifestyle” but then noted that alternate does not necessarily imply that something is acceptable. It was more Jerry Falwell, James Robison and Jimmy Swaggart that were the most outspoken. Regarding Ronnie, the initial reports were that he committed suicide as a result of his addiction to drugs which came about in Viet Nam. That’s what the suicide note implied anyway. The claim that he was suicidal is a recent claim and I suspect is apocryphal. As to Roberta (Randy’s mother), I think she needs to reread Revelation 21 in context. Going back to chapter 17, the passage is a polemic recording the abuses in Nero’s cabinet and echoes those recorded in Seutonius’ biography. There was indeed homosexuality, pedophilia, bestiality and child torture going on behind the scenes and Nero, the ultimate hypocrite, went to extremes to conceal it. Thus the term “Liar” or one with a hypocritical lifestyle in Revelation 21. The passage is not thus stating emphatically that all homosexuals go to hell. Most of them, I suspect, are victims of people such as Nero, Jerry Sandusky and others..
Hi James—termination point !—well said–we are heading that way..GOD BLESS AND TAKE CARE.
Right-wing evangelical christians scare the living daylights out of me, and I´m a lutheran myself! We were out here to love and respect each other, not condemn and hate your fellow man!
I don’t know how or why I happened to be on this website, but once I was, I couldn’t help reading the comments. To Linn: I will go along with you when you say the Bible was written by men chosen by God. I’ll even let you assert that these men where filled with the Holy Spirit. But, (and it’s a big But) These inspired men wrote the various books in their own language, e.g., Hebrew. None of the books were written in English. The translators were men hired by the Church. I will not let you assert that they too were inspired. The fact is that many of the translations can be and would be translated in different words and phrases by different men. Then there is the whole issue of how organized religion ‘decides’ how to interpret the Bible. With regard to homosexuality, there is so much interpretation of Leviticus, for example, that it is downright wrong. To claim a ban on homosexuality based on these interpretation does not make sense. Even Jesus would be the first to say, “Hey, if you’re going to use the Bible to justify bigotry, at least get the interpretation correct.”
DID YOU REALLY HATE YOUR GRANDFATHER THAT MUCH RANDY TO GO AGAINST EVERYTHING YOU WERE RAISED WITH..WHAT A COWARDS WAY OUT NOT TO BE ABLE TO LIVE THE LIFE…MAYBE YOU SHOULD REREAD YOUR CHILDRENS BIBLE OF ADAN AND EVE.
DonsterNYC You are so correct when you speak of the translations. There are words in some languages that do not translate.Also the first Bibles were hand copied by regular people and we do make mistakes. And anyone who was coping a Bible and had an axe to grind could add what ever they chose. I cannot live without my belief in God and my friendship with Jesus, but we need to use the intelligence God gave us. People who have not had the oppurtunity to learn of Jesus will also be in heaven if they live a good life. Jesus is not the only way. Many roads into a city and many means of transportation and so is the way to God
JAMES SIMMONS, What you meant to “imply” is correct. An inference is a conclusion.
Randy Potts—what a fine young man. God bless you in all your endeavours and in your upcoming (?) marriage.
Here’s a guy that chose to live as a heterosexual, fathering three children, then for whatever reason (possibly on the advice of his agent) chose to declare himself homosexual, and in the future might choose to return to his heterosexual lifestyle, yet some people here maintain that sexuality is not a choice. How odd! This is exactly how psychological denial works. It lets you ignore facts that are right in front of your face.
Sexuality is not a choice. I know many men who are gay, always have been, but the pressure to marry and produce kids back in the 70s and even 80s (and some, even now) was tremendous, particularly from highly religious families. Castigation and banishment from their families was a great concern. Show some humanity.
preaching forgiveness and not having unconditional love is hypocritical among christians.
The fool says in his heart there is no God.
How can a man grow up 20 year’s later a wife and three kids, now you all think that’s so great
DISCUSSING